Crossrail - done before?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

District line to Windsor:

http://www.thamesweb.co.uk/windsor/windsorhistory/underground.html

I expect others remember this, but I'm too young 

[Oxonhutch]

And so were Brill and Verney Junction. 

Were these both precursors of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))? 

[stuving]

I've read before that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)/WR ran trains through from Paddington to Moorgate, at peak times, with the last Windsor service being in around 1952 (and maybe a few until the 1970s). However, none of the maps I can find marks Moorgate as a mainline interchange. But that would be within my lifetime and perhaps yours too.

In a sense this is (as are the above-cited examples) like Crossrail, and in a sense it isn't. Commuter trains running to a central terminus isn't unusual. What strikes me as odd is that none of them (with the minor and soon-abandoned exception of Snow Hill) ran through. The "RER solution" avoids the limits of platform numbers (land is expensive) and turn-around time, so can run more trains. Both of those limits are worse with steam engines running round a train, plus the need to water (and maybe coal) them. So why didn't those main line commuter railways replace their termini wherever they could? The obvious one being "proto-Crossrail", from Paddington to Liverpool Street, as the last bit from Moorgate is very short. 

[eightf48544]

Through trains to Windsor lasted until after privatisation as far as I can remember there was one train around 10:00 from Padd to Windsor which used Paltform 2 at Slough. i think maybe the half hourly Oxfords/Cotswolds replaced it as they use 2 and give a cross platform interchange to Windsor. Which also now a 20 minute service

One cross London service the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) operated for a few years was I think Windsor to Southend via Ealing Brasdway and the District line to Barking using District Line electric locos for the Cross London bit. Mansion House was also used as a terminus for services from the West London line from Kensington (Adison Road (Olympia)) via Earls Court.

Also the Broad Gauge got to Victoria via the West London Line.

The real problem with cross London main line links was that in the 18 30/40s when the first main lines were being built the city made the new main lines terminate at the boundary and weren't allowed into the centre. Also as the companies were in competition they all wanted their own terminus so although the Midland may have used Euston and Kings Cross they soon decided on their own main line terminus at St Pancras. That's why you have London Bridge (Brighton), Canon Street, Blackfriars, Charing Cross and Victoria (Brighton and  Eastern) as the  Brighton, Chatham and South Eastern all wanted their own City and West End terminii.

Unlike in Prussia where the railways were strategically planned so that Berlin has an East West and North South cross city lines and a ring line linking all the main lines. Hence the new Hbf where the East West and North South lines cross. The only problem with the new station is due to war damage and the wall it is built in the middle of nowhere and is only now being linked to the main U bahn network and and the East Berlin tram system. 

 

[IndustryInsider]

Through trains to Windsor lasted until after privatisation as far as I can remember there was one train around 10:00 from Padd to Windsor which used Paltform 2 at Slough.

Pretty much until the end of Thames Trains in 2004 IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly).

[DidcotPunter]

One cross London service the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) operated for a few years was I think Windsor to Southend via Ealing Brasdway and the District line to Barking using District Line electric locos for the Cross London bit. Mansion House was also used as a terminus for services from the West London line from Kensington (Adison Road (Olympia)) via Earls Court.

 

It appears to have been operated by the District Railway and London, Tilbury and Southend Railway (LT&S) and ran between Ealing Broadway and Southend so didn't touch GWR metals. Operated between June 1910 and October 1939 with 2-3 trains a day in each direction. Seems to have been a popular service.  More info on this and the District Line/LNWR^▸ (London North Western Railway) joint services in the paper linked below:

http://lurs.org.uk/documents/pdf09/oct/district_electric_trains.pdf

[stuving]

More to the point, since I was really talking about through trains from (e.g.) Windsor to Moorgate, are some more items on the LURS site: mainly on "the Metropolitan in 1906" and "the last steam train on the underground".

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) trains did indeed run through from Paddington, and went through Moorgate and on to Aldgate. At the other end they served several places, including Windsor, Richmond, Southall, Maidenhead, Staines and even Reading. And the GER was accessible off the Met, even if the link was only used very briefly. This was of course steam hauled but the Met went all-electric from 1907. I'm not sure how long any electric-hauled service went on.

It's true that initially, when railways were unproved and of uncertain value, they had to fight (and pay) to get into the centre of London. However, it was not long before the streets (and buildings in between) were being torn up or down to put in railways. More could have been done to link them to commuter lines at termini, if it had looked profitable. However, while railway companies did cooperate (and merge) when it suited them, their objectives often didn't align. Or their egos, in some cases.

So I still think it is a puzzle - why were this "proto-Crossrail" and Snow Hill not used a lot more in the 40 years or so of steam traction? Turning steam trains in cramped stations like Aldgate can't have been easy. Post 1900 the conversion of the underground (SSR) lines to electric would have - did - lead to their taking over the surface lines to run on, rather than vice versa.

[ellendune]

The GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) built condensing pannier tank locos in the 1930's to run from Paddington to Smithfield meat market. from Wikipedia

I also understand that there was a connection between WR lines and LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd) at Paddington until the remodelling of Paddington in 1968. At this time platforms 13/14 were transferred from LU to WR. Previously they had through platforms into the Metropolitan lines. See this plan for details