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Author Topic: Ticket machine ripoffs  (Read 20684 times)
4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2014, 13:45:30 »

The obvious solution therefore is to simplify the fare structure rather than the ridiculous system we have now, and perhaps at the same time make the cost reflect the quality of the service.

There are two concepts in this proposal: (a) the structure of the way fares are determined and (b) the level of the fares. They are not necessarily directly connected.

One keeps seeing demands for simplification of the fare structure but rarely any thought-through proposals. I don't claim to have a crystal ball but to define the requirements of a fares system applicable to the demographics of the UK (United Kingdom) is an interesting exercise in logic. Some of the constraints and factors to be considered are:

  • the preponderance of travel to and within the London and South Eastern area
  • the great variations in global passenger numbers at different times of the day on some routes
  • differences in loadings between routes
  • capacity of the infrastructure
  • capacity of the trains
  • demand at different stations and variation of this with time and direction
  • global income requirements
  • need to try to match demand to capacity
  • availability of First Class or Pullman accommodation
  • and so on and so forth

There are many demands which are placed on the fares structure and some of them pull in opposite directions. A simple mileage-based structure set at a level to generate enough income to support the infrastructure and rolling stock for peak hour services into and out of London would probably be horrendously overpriced for a ticket from Melksham to Taunton. To compete in such markets effectively would mean the introduction of special cheaper fares - and, boom, promptly the simplicity has gone out of the window.

Or the lower fare is taken as the standard which means that the trains serving London would be even more overcrowded and generate insufficient income for them to be sustainable (assuming the general taxpayer does not want to subsidise other people's journeys to London).

The railway business has to have the freedom to set prices at a level which at least makes an attempt at controlling peak demand and which generates sufficient income to cover the costs of each traffic flow. There are always arguments for a degree of cross-subsidisation between flows but generally the financially weaker flows should not drain money from those areas where the money could be used for the benefit of more people.

I contend that the simplest form of fare structures (flat rate, zonal or mileage-based) are not suitable for the wide range of traffic levels, distances travelled and demands seen in the UK. As soon as a structure is required which has to allow for huge temporal and regional variations in demand, then by definition it will not be simple. But people seem to be able to cope with curious structures in supermarkets, shops, airlines and hairdressers - Buy One, Get One Free; special offers of a block of chocolate with a newspaper; airline ticket pricing which varies by route, carrier, time of day and direction let alone Economy, Business, carry-on baggage only or an extra fee to check a bag; Diamond Club cards at B&Q giving 10% off on Wednesdays; half-price haircutting for pensioners on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

The issue is not so much simplicity in the fares structure - the issue is that the structure should be intuitive and make it easy to find the most appropriate fare for a particular journey without being an expert. And here the names for the various types of tickets and the usability of the IT tools available to locate the most appropriate fare leave a lot to be desired.


Setting prices to reflect service 'quality' is a subjective judgement which would lead to continual dispute. In my opinion the current system has a lot to be said for it - although it could be tweaked, by adding, for example, another parameter for short-formed trains - in that a reduction is given for season ticket renewals if various quantifiable parameters are not met. After all, it is the regular season ticket holder who suffers most from operational problems so they should be the ones who benefit from a reduction in the price of their ticket.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2014, 14:00:40 »

One thing you can be sure of...off-peak is always after 7pm weekday evenings and all weekends.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2014, 23:30:37 »

One thing you can be sure of...off-peak is always after 7pm weekday evenings and all weekends.

Not sure you can say that I think i read somewhere Aberdeen has a Peak of half an hour between 17:00 or 17:30 certainly it wasn't until 19:00.

As to how to set fares whilst Reading Abbey has listed some of the factors that have to be taken into account

    the preponderance of travel to and within the London and South Eastern area
    the great variations in global passenger numbers at different times of the day on some routes
    differences in loadings between routes
    capacity of the infrastructure
    capacity of the trains
    demand at different stations and variation of this with time and direction
    global income requirements
    need to try to match demand to capacity
    availability of First Class or Pullman accommodation
    and so on and so forth

If you try and take into acount every one of thoise factors you would end up with a fare structure where every train had it's own fare for every station served by that train including ones you can  reached by changing. Which is impossible.

I don't think that you can compare pricing in shops as you have the choice of of buying by price, by brand you probably also have a choice of places to buy and even not to buy at that time.

With most train journies you need to start at particular station and go to another probably at a certain time on a certain day. You may get a choice of trains in your time band, you may also on odd journies get a choice of route and maybe a choice of operator, but in most cases you are stuck with one train run by one TOC (Train Operating Company).

Also trains are not like planes most flights serve one destination maybe 2  with a fixed number of seats and only a few flights a day to each destination.. Therefore, it is relatively easy for the airline to adjust the price to either fill an empty flight or increase the fares when it's getting full to maximise the revenue.

But take a London to Bristol train stopping at Reading Didcot Swindon Chippenham Bath and Bristol, there are 21 journies that can be made on that train. 6 from Padd 5 from Reading etc. given there are at probably at least 10 trains a day just on one route and one stopping pattern alone.  That's 210 journies to price

That is only for single journies without the complication of returns. Again it's relatively easy for the airline they can see how flights are filling and adjust the fares accordingly. Plus sometimes it's difficult to get as cheap a return flight.

So do we go back to universal walk up fare with no restriction at so many pence per mile irrespective of the journey. With returns 120% of single?  Return within month
Off peak day returns say 30% of walk up. But as for their restrcitons, i can see the case for after 09:30 from local station or arrival at big town after 10:00. But I do wonder about the evening peak restriction it does seem to distort the passenger flow as the 16:55 trains are packed as are the 19:05 ones but the 17:05 and 18:55 trains are compartively empty. They didn't work in the sixties on the Southern suburban. They were a pain to sell as you had to ask "When are you coming back?" and then expalin they couldn't come back between I think in those days 16:30 to 18:30 and without barriers it require ticket checks at the barrier. Plus that was blanket ban to most Southern suburban stations.

Now it's even more confusing as I believe from reading posts on Coffee Shop that on some trains out of Padd Off Peak tickets are allowed to certain stations served by a peak hour train Pewsey?

Having universal fares takes pricing out of the hands of the TOCs.

Not worked a method of pric1ng advanced

Otherwise letting the TOCs try to "Smart Price" will just increase the complexity as they try to factor in all the variables outlined by Reading Abbey.

 
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JayMac
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2014, 07:33:12 »

One thing you can be sure of...off-peak is always after 7pm weekday evenings and all weekends.

1916 or later for Off Peak Day if you want a fast service from Paddington.
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2014, 08:59:57 »

One thing you can be sure of...off-peak is always after 7pm weekday evenings and all weekends.

Not sure you can say that I think i read somewhere Aberdeen has a Peak of half an hour between 17:00 or 17:30 certainly it wasn't until 19:00.

I was stating a rule you could rely on...after 1900 I thought was a franchise requirement across all TOCs (Train Operating Company) (who can choose to better it, but not worsen), so how FGW (First Great Western) can push this to 1916, I don't know - unless the 1900 is for off-peak only, not off-peak Day tickets...
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Andrew1939 from West Oxon
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2014, 09:43:54 »

All the above comments assume that you can use the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) at your station. The Hanborough machine is a dead loss for much of the time and for many people. You can only read the screen when it is not a sunny day with the sunlight falling on the screen from midday onwards the creen can be unreadable. The machine is termpermental as to whom it will sell tickets and what cards it will accept in payment. Personally I find the machine refuses to accept contact with my finger. Someone has said that it is something to do with the level of static electricity that varies from person to person as I have found that after refusing to accept my purchase attempt it will then go on to sell a ticket to the next user. The machine at Hanborough has now, at last, been modified to issue ticket bought over the internet. However if the machinbe will not recognise my credit card used to buy the ticket in the first place over the internet, how can I rely on using this facility? Ticket vending automation still has a long way to go to become reliable but fortunately our Worcester based conductors understand this well so do not penalise me when I ask to buy a ticicet from them on the train.
Having said that, many people on the early morning trains do use the machine because there are often long queues extending out into the car park waiting to buy a ticket but many then rush on to the train when it arrives rather than miss it whilst waiting to use the machine. Fortunately FGW (First Great Western) management has recongnbised this problem and is trying to get permission to erect a portacabin type building so that a member of staff can sell tickets over the morning peak period.
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2014, 19:02:14 »


If you try and take into acount every one of thoise factors you would end up with a fare structure where every train had it's own fare for every station served by that train including ones you can  reached by changing. Which is impossible.

I don't think that you can compare pricing in shops as you have the choice of of buying by price, by brand you probably also have a choice of places to buy and even not to buy at that time.

With most train journies you need to start at particular station and go to another probably at a certain time on a certain day. You may get a choice of trains in your time band, you may also on odd journies get a choice of route and maybe a choice of operator, but in most cases you are stuck with one train run by one TOC (Train Operating Company).

Maybe my post was not so cleverly phrased as it could have been. I wasn^t imagining that the cases where there is a choice of TOCs is significant, although more people may in fact have a choice of route, or that individual legs have different prices. My point was that all the factors I listed affect demand and therefore indirectly affect the costs of operation; the fares structure and fare levels have to make sense of this and in doing so (a) ensure the operator receives an income which covers his costs, (b) be understandable to the customer and (c) be enforceable.

It matters not one whit whether the operator is under a management contract where he takes the income risk (^franchise^) or whether he^s operating under a management contract where the client takes the income risk (^concession^) or whether the operator is a unitary national organisation - the income has to be approximately equal to the cost of running the railway if the taxpayer is not to be excessively or unjustly asked to foot the bill.

So the question is simple - how does one arrange the fares structure and fare levels to ensure these requirements are met? The answers, however, may not be!

I tried to point out that the simplest fare structures - flat rate, zonal or distance-based - would inevitably lead to some journeys being over-priced and others under-priced. If demand across the network was uniform, both temporally and regionally, then such simple structures could work. But life is not like that and the fares structure has to accommodate life as it is and not how one would like it to be. So pricing variations are necessary to cope with loadings varying with time, route and direction, level of competition by other modes and so on.

The point to be born in mind about all purchase of travel - coach, plane, train, rickshaw or ship - is that the ticket price is designed to get ^bums on seats^ at a time and place which suits the operator and which helps increase his income. It is not designed to ensure that the individual traveller gets the lowest price for his journey. If he does, well and good, if not - then he has to pay the asking price. Pricing is to do with statistics - not individuals.

It^s not as if any of this is new - different pricing for different flows goes back to the dawn of railways - the Railway Regulation Act 1844 laid down a fare of 1d per mile for 3rd class passengers on one train a day. Although this was enacted for reasons other than maximisation of income the point remains that by this time there were already four price points for each possible journey - First, Second, Third and Parliamentary. Only a decade and a half after passenger travel began the system was already complex.

My comparison with shops was to show that people can cope with complexity in pricing, and make their purchasing decisions accordingly - although there is no excuse for shops to be deliberately obfuscating. Similarly there is no reason to assume that people should suddenly be unable to cope when they are purchasing rail tickets. However, one has to be careful about the type of ticket under discussion for this type of purchasing decision. From the context it would seem that this issue of ^complexity^ mainly concerns the purchase of tickets for one-off journeys, possibly for business, possibly for leisure. Somewhat surprisingly, these do not make up a majority of journeys.

Analysis of the ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)^s figures for 2012-13 give the following results for the number of journeys and the passenger-km these represent. The total number of journeys was 1,501.7 million which generated 59.7 billion passenger-km. The table gives the breakdown in percentages by ticket type.

Season tickets:         made up 42% of journeys and 28.5% of the passenger-km
Anytime/Peak fares: made up 21.2% of journeys and 16.8% of the passenger-km
Off-peak fares:         made up 30.9% of journeys and 36.1% of the passenger-km
Advance purchase (valid for one train only): made up 3.4% of journeys and 17.9% of the passenger-km
Others:                    made up 2.6% of journeys and 0.7% of the passenger-km.

What this means is that nearly half of all rail travellers know what they want and have made bulk travel purchases, i.e., they bought season tickets. Another fifth of all tickets are sold to people who are travelling in the peak periods or want the flexibility that a full price ticket gives. These two categories together make up, roundly, two thirds of all purchases.

This leaves about one third of all journeys which are made using some form of reduced rate tickets, but they make long journeys. It is these passengers that need a system which enables them to identify and purchase the most appropriate ticket easily - not only from the point of view of price but also from the point of view of validity. These people are probably not regular travellers, their grasp of railway geography may not be very good, they are probably not ^au fait^ with the ticket names - they need support the whole way through the process. The current names for the various types of ticket don^t help. For example, as most/all tickets can be bought in advance of the date of travel, why have a ticket type called ^Advance^ when what the name really means is that travel is limited to a particular train, or trains, on a particular day? It^s confusing.

The ^validity^ issues also seem to cause occasional passengers the most grief. It is clear that cheaper tickets need some restrictions on their validity to avoid cannibalisation of the full fare traffic, but these need to be explained in clear text and not simply referred to as ^Restriction J2^ or some such. As the restrictions are part of the contract they should be printed on the ticket so there is no doubt and be specific to that journey. Railways are not like airlines which check individual passengers onto each flight, so the onus has to be very clearly passed to the passenger.

Identifying the most suitable ticket is the sort of problem that computers are good at solving and designing a suitable web interface for a browser should not be impossible. The issue is that such searches can take time - which is not generally a problem at home, but becomes one if this search has to be carried out at the ticket machine on the station with a queue building up behind. So - a suggestion. Would it not be possible to install what are essentially web browsers with a card reader in the booking office so people can plan their journey, select and pay for their tickets without obstructing others wanting to use the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) who know what they want? After purchasing the ticket at the web browser the tickets would be printed by the TVM in a sort of ^Ticket on Departure^ process. One should be able to buy two or three web browser kiosks for the price of one full blown ticket ticket machine.

So I repeat - the issue is not that the structure should be simple, it^s that the structure should be intuitive and the support systems, both IT and human, should be designed around the customer^s needs and abilities.
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JayMac
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« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2014, 19:28:07 »

One thing you can be sure of...off-peak is always after 7pm weekday evenings and all weekends.

Not sure you can say that I think i read somewhere Aberdeen has a Peak of half an hour between 17:00 or 17:30 certainly it wasn't until 19:00.

I was stating a rule you could rely on...after 1900 I thought was a franchise requirement across all TOCs (Train Operating Company) (who can choose to better it, but not worsen), so how FGW (First Great Western) can push this to 1916, I don't know - unless the 1900 is for off-peak only, not off-peak Day tickets...

And there are some flows where you can't travel Super Off Peak until 1901 or later. Others at 1905, 1910... Others where Super Off Peak extends to 1930 and there's even flows where Super Off Peak doesn't allow travel until 2015 (including weekends!)
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« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2014, 20:41:28 »

One thing you can be sure of...off-peak is always after 7pm weekday evenings and all weekends.

Not sure you can say that I think i read somewhere Aberdeen has a Peak of half an hour between 17:00 or 17:30 certainly it wasn't until 19:00.

I was stating a rule you could rely on...after 1900 I thought was a franchise requirement across all TOCs (Train Operating Company) (who can choose to better it, but not worsen), so how FGW (First Great Western) can push this to 1916, I don't know - unless the 1900 is for off-peak only, not off-peak Day tickets...

And there are some flows where you can't travel Super Off Peak until 1901 or later. Others at 1905, 1910... Others where Super Off Peak extends to 1930 and there's even flows where Super Off Peak doesn't allow travel until 2015 (including weekends!)

Wow, out of interest which one?
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« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2014, 20:47:34 »

And there are some flows where you can't travel Super Off Peak until 1901 or later. Others at 1905, 1910... Others where Super Off Peak extends to 1930 and there's even flows where Super Off Peak doesn't allow travel until 2015 (including weekends!)

Wow, out of interest which one?

This one:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BHM&dest=1072&grpo=0418&tkt=SSR
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64300.aspx

Although I was slightly wrong about the weekend. There are still morning and evening restrictions in both directions but not as er, restrictive as weekdays.
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« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2014, 06:24:46 »

Quote
Not valid on trains timed to arrive:
London Terminals before 13:00 and after 15:20 until 20:30, Mondays to Fridays or before 12:00 and after 17:45 until 20:00, Saturdays and Sundays;

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Terminals before 11:00 and after 13:40 until 2015, Mondays to Fridays or before 10:30 and after 16:30 until 18:30, Saturdays and Sundays;

Different times for Milton Keynes and Watford Junction.

Off topic, that's a very interesting pointer towards the very quietest times of day of rail travel - and it would seem to be very much in line with what we've seen with TransWilts counts - perhaps the very opposite line in most ways to the Birmingham - London flow that this restriction above applies to.



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« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2014, 10:48:35 »

My bad - the regulated off-peak ticket on any flow is always valid after 1900.....
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« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2014, 18:15:24 »

I have reported several inconsistencies to FGW (First Great Western) with their TVMs (Ticket Vending Machine) and also to GreaterAnglia and Southern for the same. I have also had "disagreements" with Revenue Protection over tickets bought from TVMs where I could not buy the full ticket I wanted.

A couple of years ago I arrived at Taunton Station at 1AM and poked the TVM for a ticket to London Paddington. It would only sell me a First Anytime Single/Return or Standard Anytime Single/Return. Despite the Super Off Peak being available for the Sleeper Service due at 01:38.

Needless to say I didn't make the purchase and bought a ticket on board without issue.



Other issues I've had is where I have bought the wrong ticket because a cheaper fare was hidden on a second page of fares. This is where I ended up with an FDR (First Anytime Day Return) despite an FCR (First Off Peak Day Return) at just under half the price being available. Despite the nameless train company trying to claim Caveat Emptor. I cited that with threatening Yellow and Black posters explaining Penalty Fares for not having a ticket. To use that against a passenger and allow them to be sold an incorrect higher fare for the same journey was not reasonable.

FGW did not try a similar stance and refunded me the whole SDR ticket price when a CDR (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) was valid on the train I used. So yes it is possible to claim back if you were mis-sold your ticket.

ATOC» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) guidelines suggest you should be sold the cheapest ticket for your journey. If you're putting that burden on the customer to know what they're buying. That is in itself a contradiction. I believe this is just one of the reasons why Condition 12 in the NRCoC (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) exists. I am more than comfortable buying a restrictive ticket such as Super Off Peak or Off Peak and paying excess onboard. I don't think such things are 'that' unreasonable.

I personally discredit the idea of Air Fares being used as a comparison to Rail Fares as it has significant flaws that make such a comparison deeply biased. Airlines have to stop selling tickets at a certain point when the plane + overbooking has been reached. They don't offer Season Tickets (That I am aware of). The railway does sell season tickets, has a quota of Advance Tickets. But also will sell a cheap day return if you turn up at the station for a 12PM service to go 6 stops up the line.

Aviation is the complete opposite. You could turn up at Bristol International and ask for a ticket to Berlin, but there is no guarantee that there would be space on the plane for you. If you decide the plane is too busy, you can't get off and get the one 2 hours later without significant cost or inconvenience or if at all.



Just to note though that a guard can and indeed should sell an anytime ticket at the weekend to those who could have bought a ticket before boarding the train but neglected to do so.

Just for people who read this thread so they get a complete picture. This I believe for all UK (United Kingdom) rail operators does not apply to holders of a Disabled Railcard and is usually stated as such in the operators passenger charter or disabled passengers protection policy.

I have been told by some staff that this is down to Staff Discretion. This is completely wrong as the policies make absolutely no reference to discretion from staff whatsoever.

From Greater Anglia's Passenger Charter July 2014 (PDF Document):
Quote
However, if you get on a Pay Train service without a valid ticket at a station where the ticket office is open, or where a TVM is available and in working order, you will not be entitled to any special fares or discounts. You will have to buy
the full Single or full Return ticket for your journey. You will not be able to use a Railcard in these circumstances, with the exception of a Disabled Persons Railcard which will be valid.

And FGWs (PDF Document):
Quote
If you board one of our services without a valid ticket, at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, you will be charged the Anytime (full open single or return) fare. You will not be eligible for Railcard discounts, except if you have a Disabled Persons Railcard.

In both of those, no mention of discretion whatsoever. From the above wording it's extremely clear to me that it states if you hold that railcard you will be allowed to buy the full range of tickets. Discretion doesn't come into the matter.
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« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2014, 19:04:35 »

Hmmm.

It could be interpreted in the Greater Anglia quote that yes, you can obtain the Railcard discount, but you are still required to buy the Anytime, or full, single or return. Nowhere does it say cheaper tickets can ve bought if available with the railcard
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« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2014, 19:07:09 »

Ditto with the FGW (First Great Western) DOCUMENT i've just checked. Discount allowed, but nowhere does it state anything other than full fare with discount
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