Ticket machine ripoffs

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

If Waitrose didn't put their generic "basics" product on the lower shelf ...

_Cough ... purely in the interests of accuracy, they are the Waitrose 'essential' product range. 

[The Tall Controller]

Do TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) really sell 25% of ALL railway tickets? I can only imagine that this figure contains those tickets sold online and collected from a TVM.

[trainer]

In an interview on the Radio 4 PM programme on 31st October, Francis Thomas, a spokesperson for ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here), was quite open that TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) as currently seen can only manage to issue the most commonly requested tickets and anything more complex/cheaper has to be purchased on-line or at a booking office.  He suggested that ATOC was not happy with this state of affairs, but the technology of linking TVMs to reservation systems (which many reduced fares need) was not ready.  He seemed to be agreeing that TVMs are not the best way to buy anything other than a basic (ie at many times of the day more expensive) fare.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04mpr60

Item starts at 41:32

[Chris from Nailsea]

These are the Scheidt & Bachmann ticket vending machines which apparently cost (last time I asked) ^20,000 each? 

[ellendune]

These are the Scheidt & Bachmann ticket vending machines which apparently cost (last time I asked) ^20,000 each? 

... ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) was not happy with this state of affairs, but the technology of linking TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) to reservation systems (which many reduced fares need) was not ready.  He seemed to be agreeing that TVMs are not the best way to buy anything other than a basic (ie at many times of the day more expensive) fare.

So is the problem with

• the ^20,000 TVM; or
• the software in the TVM; or
• the software used to run the reservation systems?

Whatever it is is anyone trying to fix it?

[stuving]

That's how I remember the machines being presented when they first came in. They could only offer a limited range of on-the-day tickets, to take some load off the ticket offices. Of course that's not consistent with the idea of reducing ticket office hours, or closing them, and relying on TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

The problem was explained in part as the difficulty of presenting all the necessary information on-screen for more complex tickets. So should they just show an on-line booking engine? The screen might need a few more pixels, but it sounds doable.

[grahame]

So should they just show an on-line booking engine? The screen might need a few more pixels, but it sounds doable.

I'm sure it *is* do-able ... but I can spend an age in front of my online booking engine trying all sorts of combinations, and I suspect that it would be practical to allow the average transaction time on one of a relatively few machines to rocket.

I was in Paddington quite a while back, looking to buy split tickets for the following day's travel, and unaware (at that point) that Paddington is a station with special dispensation not to sell tickets for future dates after (I think it was) 8 p.m. .... anyway, I sat on the concourse, ordered my tickets on line and collected them 5 minutes later from the machine.   Yes, I know it says (or said) "allow 2 hours" but in reality ...   Perhaps there's a lesson - if TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) became pickup points (perhaps with just the 10 most common tickets) and people were encouraged to use cheaper, more familiar PCs and mobile devices to order and pay online ... perhaps even have a handful of public access PCs and at big places like Paddington some help ...

Whatever it is is anyone trying to fix it?

What an interesting question - I wonder if anyone's going to come in and answer that, or tell us priorities / timescales 

[ellendune]

.... anyway, I sat on the concourse, ordered my tickets on line and collected them 5 minutes later from the machine.   Yes, I know it says (or said) "allow 2 hours" but in reality ...   Perhaps there's a lesson - if TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) became pickup points (perhaps with just the 10 most common tickets) and people were encouraged to use cheaper, more familiar PCs and mobile devices to order and pay online ... perhaps even have a handful of public access PCs and at big places like Paddington some help ...

Why not incorporate the interface to an online booking engine into the TVM. All you need is to reduce the 5 minutes weight time and it is done.

[grahame]

Why not incorporate the interface to an online booking engine into the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine). All you need is to reduce the 5 minutes weight time and it is done.

Because the elapsed time per transaction would be much longer so you would need a lot more TVMs.

You perhaps would also want to default (not force) the "from" station to where you are.

[TaplowGreen]

Why not incorporate the interface to an online booking engine into the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine). All you need is to reduce the 5 minutes weight time and it is done.

Because the elapsed time per transaction would be much longer so you would need a lot more TVMs.

You perhaps would also want to default (not force) the "from" station to where you are.

The obvious solution therefore is to simplify the fare structure rather than the ridiculous system we have now, and perhaps at the same time make the cost reflect the quality of the service.

[ChrisB]

Which would withdraw all the cheapest options....

[chrisr_75]

But a train running costs are largely fixed, so presumably those on the 'cheapest options' are being subsidised by those who are not. If a balance was found to cover running costs and a 'reasonable' profit margin for the operator and everyone paid the same amount per mile, then we wouldn't need the cheapest options or the ridiculous range of ticketing variations we currently have. Just a nice simple single or return (which costs 2 x single ticket price) and a range of season tickets to suit those more regular travellers.

I works just about everywhere else in Europe, so why not here?!

[sprinterguard]

Good to see some mature responses and answers to the article, which is less than you can say for one particular commenter on that article...

"The train service in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is such a rip off I feel it's every mans duty to fare dodge
when possible. I would rather give my money to terrorists and drug dealers than East Coast mainline trains......and I'm not joking."

As a guard you see this quite regularly, people buy tickets from the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) that are way too expensive all the time. It's the same with the internet sales side too. People don't know what they're buying and end up with tickets that cost much more than they should.

[stuving]

But a train running costs are largely fixed, so presumably those on the 'cheapest options' are being subsidised by those who are not.

Not so, at least in theory. Another way of putting it is that the cost of carrying an extra passenger is almost zero. So if the train isn't full, and we can entice someone who would not otherwise travel with a ticket at only 1/10 of the usual fare, and adjust the operating margin to be the same, it will be cheaper for everyone else.

Once the train is full you need another way of looking at it altogether. And the nearest you can get to picking people who would not travel otherwise is a crude approximation. But a lot of that analysis still applies, hence the use of airline-style pricing on a lot of high-speed services (and airlines).

Of course simplicity also has a value, and may be preferred in any case.

[lordgoata]

As a guard you see this quite regularly, people buy tickets from the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) that are way too expensive all the time. It's the same with the internet sales side too. People don't know what they're buying and end up with tickets that cost much more than they should.

I always buy an Anytime if I get from the machine - I have no idea what I actually need, and if it presents Anytime (even in off peak), it always seems the safest option than getting grief at the other end

From what I could gather, Off Peak isn't a set time (like 10am-3pm Mon-Fri) - it varies from service to service (or station to station) ? And if thats not the case, then it just reinforces my point - I have no idea what I need and when!