First Great Western criticised over disability provision

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From ITV News:

First Great Western criticised over disability provision


First Great Western blames its old rolling stock.  Photo: PA^▸ (Public Address)

For most of us taking a journey by public transport is something we take for granted - but for many disabled people it can be a real challenge. Most firms do their best to help, but often there's only provision for one wheelchair at a time.

Bodmin councillor and disability campaigner Pete Skea took ITV Westcountry along as he went with two friends from his home town for a day out in Truro. His cerebral palsy means he needs a wheelchair. He wanted a day out with another wheelchair user and a friend in a mobility scooter.

The train has allocated space for just one wheelchair. Pete's friends were provided with specially adapted taxis to get them to their destination, paid for by the train operator First Great Western. It meant they all had to travel apart.

"I applaud British Rail for paying for two taxis for my colleagues, but on the same token it is a great shame that three friends cannot really go out for the day."
^ PETE SKEA

"I understand the railways can't cater, but I'm thinking why not have seats that can lift out? Why not make one carriage an accessible carriage that you can quickly alter. I don't think it would be that much in terms of engineering."
^ RICHARD BROWN, PETE'S FELLOW WHEELCHAIR USER

First Great Western says one in a hundred travellers needs assistance and that's a significant number of customers.

On their Pendolino trains with nine or eleven carriages, Virgin Trains say they have three wheelchair spaces; two in standard and one in first class. The five carriage Super Voyager trains have one in standard and one in first.

"We need to make sure that provision is available and we're in regular contact with disabled groups across the network to make sure it is up to scratch. That's not to say there isn't any more we can do. We've got relatively old rolling stock and that does limit us in many ways, certainly on the branch lines".
^ FIRST GREAT WESTERN SPOKESMAN

[LiskeardRich]

The trains in the programme were full and standing. It was a single 150.

One of the suggestions made on the news by the wheelchair user was to have a carriage with no seats at all. My thought was it would create more room for reading travellers to stand 
It was also good to hear BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) have risen from history to pay for the taxis!

[The Tall Controller]

I don't believe you can blame old rolling stock as Pendolinos and Voyagers can't provide 3 wheelchair spaces together either. HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) can however take 2 (3 at a push) wheelchair users at a time in one place but I don't think anything else can match/better that. Most buses can't take more than two wheelchair users either.

[noddingdonkey]

The train was full and standing due to there being two separate camera crews (one BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page), one ITV) complete with attendant soundmen and presenters!

[Rhydgaled]

Most buses can't take more than two wheelchair users either.

Don't think I've ever been on a bus with more than one wheelchair backrest, although quite a few seem to have two sets of flip-up seats (one of which is the wheelchair space). Have once seen two wheelchair passengers on a single journey, luckily the first had alighted a few stops before the second boarded the bus otherwise I don't know what would have happened.

[ChrisB]

Good point! How often do you see this type of article on public transport ever focus on anything but trains? Why are they expected to have suitable accomodation for a party than other types like buses or coaches?

[LiskeardRich]

Being realistic, I think the only thing to be taken from this story is to compliment FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for having a plan to transport disabled passengers who couldn't get on the train.
FGW should be commended for providing complimentary disabled adapted taxis. We are talking probably about 20 miles or so each way so not a cheap taxi ride by any way.
My gran was wheelchair bound, and taxis were always a lot more comfortable than train journeys. She found train journeys uncomfortable in the wheelchair, but had no problems with taxi rides.

[grahame]

There's a limit of what any service provider can do and my understanding of DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) is that the provision has to be at least as good for disabled as for able bodied (I am not a lawyer).   I have seen trains leave people behind because they have been too full for any more to get on, so provided that it doesn't happen more in proportion for people in wheelchairs, the minimum answer required is "sorry - trains full [for wheelchairs] - please wait for next train".

We've been through similar with disabled car parking space provision / quotas in the design of the new Melksham Campus ... where there are facilities that specifically encourage the disabled, there needs to be more than average car park spaces (in proportion) for them,  and they will tend to come in groups to specific events organised for them.   We have looked at spaces that can be used for able-bodied people at certain times of day / on some days, and also we're aware that if the hall is to be used for wheelchair basketball once in a blue moon that we're not going to have enough parking bays for wheelchairs unless we leave considerable space unused on the vast majority of days.

One of our Melksham Campus team is - err - a bit of an extremist in terms of elderly and disabled rights and even he accepts that on rare occasions these spaces will run out ... public able-bodied parking will run out much more often, though 

[thetrout]

There's a limit of what any service provider can do and my understanding of DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) is that the provision has to be at least as good for disabled as for able bodied (I am not a lawyer).

I think it's more covered in the Equality Act... Of which FGW^▸ (First Great Western) fail in my view with their First Class Provision.

In Standard Class with 2x Wheelchair Bays which can take 3 wheelchairs at an absolute push (as Rob T says). Standard Class also has an accessible toilet. In First Class you have 1 Wheelchair Space yet no accessible toilet.

So if we're talking about the provision being equally as good. Then in First Class with FGW and to an extent many other operators [to be blunt] it isn't

Now I am aware of the various technicalities with Mk3 carriages and all the rest. But if a Disabled Toilet can be provided in Standard Class with FGW. Also provided in First Class on CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains and East Coast. Then saying "It's not possible" doesn't wash with me.

I can imagine just what furor there would be if a wheelchair user asked for a First Class ticket for the First Class experience only to be told that the disabled toilet was in Coach C some 4 coaches away in Standard Class... So you're paying more for a lesser service...

With all that said, some trains offer First Class do not offer basic wheelchair spaces at all (SWT^▸ (South West Trains) Class 159 / Class 450, London Midland Class 350, CrossCountry Class 170) or have no disabled toilets in the First Class Section nearby (SWT Class 444). It's fair to say for some TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) as well that First Class doesn't even have any form of toilet maybe even in the same carriage! (GreaterAnglia Class 321*/Class 360**, Southern Railway Class 377)

I could almost preempt the response of "There is no demand" or "There is a toilet for the use of our 'vulnerable' customers in the First Class section which is suitable for the mast majority of customer requiring assistance" (Hidden disabilities). Whilst I don't to be overly critical of FGW. The fact they've started fitting trains with WiFi and refurbishing First Class and have yet to install a fundamentally basic requirement for wheelchair users in First Class (Accessible toilet) is a massive missed opportunity for some excellent and good PR^▸ (Public Relations)/Publicity. They've also had the nerve to metion providing power sockets / USB points at Wheelchair Spaces in First Class. Yet we still don't have a toilet? I almost want to faceplant the desk again

If anything. FGW have done an own goal. I know it seems alot to ask. But if others can do it.........


Eversholt recently refurbished a Class 321 Unit nicknamed Demonstrator. I had the pleasure of travelling on it. GreaterAnglia have trashed her a little and she was looking rather unloved. BUT it was clear alot of thought and work had gone into the idea. The train felt so much brighter, more spacious and had an accessible compliant toilet in the First Class/Standard Class composite carriage! I will be honest, it made the train feel it was brand new inside and not 20+ years old.

Class 321s have a similar bodyshell to Class 150s... So I perhaps wonder if the same is possible. Now I suspect I'll be told it's because the Class 150 is a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and not EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit).


*Excluding unit: 321448
**Depeding on which end of the train you sit

[The Tall Controller]

I guess with over half the fleet being scrapped in the not to distant future and the rest being earmarked for replacement, I guess it doesn't make financial sense to invest in accessible toilets for 1st class. However if the life of the remaining HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) is beyond 10 years I think it should be looked into. I hear news that a class 150 is currently undergoing modifications involving the fitting of an accessible toilet which is certainly a step in the right direction!

In other news, I can report that I managed to fit in 3 wheelchairs onto a 150/2 today and all in the same area! Very cosy though!

[Network SouthEast]

Eversholt recently refurbished a Class 321 Unit nicknamed Demonstrator. I had the pleasure of travelling on it. GreaterAnglia have trashed her a little and she was looking rather unloved. BUT it was clear alot of thought and work had gone into the idea. The train felt so much brighter, more spacious and had an accessible compliant toilet in the First Class/Standard Class composite carriage! I will be honest, it made the train feel it was brand new inside and not 20+ years old.

Class 321s have a similar bodyshell to Class 150s... So I perhaps wonder if the same is possible. Now I suspect I'll be told it's because the Class 150 is a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and not EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit).

The class 321 demonstrator does has the universal toilet in the composite carriage, but it is at the opposite end of the carriage from 1st class in standard. So it still has the same drawbacks as other rolling stock where there is no wheelchair access from 1st class to a universal toilet.

Class 150s are going to be overhauled with a universal toilet. Elsewhere the Turbos are having a Universal toilet (and space for 2 wheelchairs) being added right now, the first to 166 221 is now in service.

Where there is an issue between number of wheelchair spaces and provision of toilets is that the PRM^▸ (Persons with Reduced Mobility)-TSI regulations 4.2.2.3 say:

According to the length of the train, excluding the locomotive or power head, there shall be in that train not less than the number of wheelchair spaces shown in the following table:

Train length                           Number of wheelchair spaces by train
Less than 205 m                   2 wheelchair spaces
205 - 300 m                          3 wheelchair spaces
More than 300 m                 4 wheelchair spaces

As for where toilets should be in relation to the wheelchair space(s), the original RVAR regulation 20(1) requirement is still in force. It says:

If a regulated rail vehicle or train is equipped with toilets, the nearest toilet cubicle to a wheelchair space or wheelchair-compatible sleeping compartment shall comply with the requirements in Regulation 14 <snip>

So if a 1st class area has a wheelchair area, then it must be near an accessible toilet to remain compliant from 2020.

If anyone is after some bedtime reading:

RAVR
PRM-TSI

[ChrisB]

The refulations refer to each unit, not the class of accomodation, which can be changed at will by the operator

[TRAINMAN57]

There's a limit of what any service provider can do and my understanding of DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) is that the provision has to be at least as good for disabled as for able bodied (I am not a lawyer).

I think it's more covered in the Equality Act... Of which FGW^▸ (First Great Western) fail in my view with their First Class Provision.

In Standard Class with 2x Wheelchair Bays which can take 3 wheelchairs at an absolute push (as Rob T says). Standard Class also has an accessible toilet. In First Class you have 1 Wheelchair Space yet no accessible toilet.

So if we're talking about the provision being equally as good. Then in First Class with FGW and to an extent many other operators [to be blunt] it isn't

Now I am aware of the various technicalities with Mk3 carriages and all the rest. But if a Disabled Toilet can be provided in Standard Class with FGW. Also provided in First Class on CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains and East Coast. Then saying "It's not possible" doesn't wash with me.

I can imagine just what furor there would be if a wheelchair user asked for a First Class ticket for the First Class experience only to be told that the disabled toilet was in Coach C some 4 coaches away in Standard Class... So you're paying more for a lesser service...

With all that said, some trains offer First Class do not offer basic wheelchair spaces at all (SWT^▸ (South West Trains) Class 159 / Class 450, London Midland Class 350, CrossCountry Class 170) or have no disabled toilets in the First Class Section nearby (SWT Class 444). It's fair to say for some TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) as well that First Class doesn't even have any form of toilet maybe even in the same carriage! (GreaterAnglia Class 321*/Class 360**, Southern Railway Class 377)

I could almost preempt the response of "There is no demand" or "There is a toilet for the use of our 'vulnerable' customers in the First Class section which is suitable for the mast majority of customer requiring assistance" (Hidden disabilities). Whilst I don't to be overly critical of FGW. The fact they've started fitting trains with WiFi and refurbishing First Class and have yet to install a fundamentally basic requirement for wheelchair users in First Class (Accessible toilet) is a massive missed opportunity for some excellent and good PR^▸ (Public Relations)/Publicity. They've also had the nerve to metion providing power sockets / USB points at Wheelchair Spaces in First Class. Yet we still don't have a toilet? I almost want to faceplant the desk again

If anything. FGW have done an own goal. I know it seems alot to ask. But if others can do it.........


Eversholt recently refurbished a Class 321 Unit nicknamed Demonstrator. I had the pleasure of travelling on it. GreaterAnglia have trashed her a little and she was looking rather unloved. BUT it was clear alot of thought and work had gone into the idea. The train felt so much brighter, more spacious and had an accessible compliant toilet in the First Class/Standard Class composite carriage! I will be honest, it made the train feel it was brand new inside and not 20+ years old.

Class 321s have a similar bodyshell to Class 150s... So I perhaps wonder if the same is possible. Now I suspect I'll be told it's because the Class 150 is a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and not EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit).


*Excluding unit: 321448
**Depeding on which end of the train you sit

Just as an aside first class after the refurb will have two wheelchair spaces.