Thames Valley infrastructure problems causing disruption elsewhere - 2014

[whole diary]

[SandTEngineer]

I use this site to check the performance of the services I normally use.  Sometimes very depressing reading 
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/

Here is a (very bad) example of services I use (tried to post the actual table but couldn't work it out ):
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Plymouth+%28PLY%29&To=Paddington+%28PAD%29&TimTyp=A&TimDay=8a&Days=Wk&TimPer=4w&dtFr=29%2F10%2F2014&dtTo=26%2F11%2F2014&ShwTim=AvAr&ShwAdv=ShwAdv&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=8

[Super Guard]

Really interesting figures - thanks BNM.

So whilst Network Rail (NR^» (Network Rail - home page)) "cause" the majority of delays/cancellation, it's by a ratio of roughly 2:1 compared to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/Other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company).

Judging by the expert comment on here most of the time, I had got the impression that it was more like 10:1

The cost to the economy overall if you extrapolate these delays/cancellations must be phenomenal.

Here's some expert comment for you:

A passenger has a medical emergency on board.  Ambulance is called, train is delayed along with several behind and onward knock on effects, while connections are held.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

A disabled passenger takes time to board a FGW train.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

A disabled passenger takes time to board a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Voyager after being booked by XC in the middle of a busy coach.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW as it's their station, although XC may take a share.  Those minutes add up quickly if the delay happens at Plymouth and the train is bound for Aberdeen.

A High Speed Train (HST^▸ (High Speed Train)) arrives and departs on-time.  However a passenger who overslept suddenly attempts to get off by pulling a pass-com.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

A High Speed Train (HST) starts to depart and a late passenger runs onto the platform and pulls a door "on-the-catch".  Train is stopped.  Door secured, needs re-dispatching etc.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

Exeter Chiefs are playing rugby at home.  Digby & Sowton Station has a sectional appendix requirement that states no train longer than 4 carriages may stop.  FGW put on 4 carriage trains all day and run the maximum number of trains that NR allow.  Delays still occur because moving thousands of fans will do that.  Root cause = Rugby match/passengers overcrowding.  Delay blame = FGW.

A group of drunk and unruly passengers assault a Train Manager.  Train is delayed (or perhaps cancelled) for police attendance at the next station.  Root cause = drunk passenger.  Delay blame = FGW.

Before anyone jumps on me about assisted passengers etc, i'm not for one minute suggesting we throw them on at the nearest door, so not to delay trains.  These things take as long as they take.

However, i'm merely pointing out that FGW delay minutes are not black and white.  Of course broken down trains and staff issues (which are unacceptable) will add up in these figures, but the delays can also be caused by our beloved passengers/customers themselves.

Oh, and also the reason you sit here reading the "expert comment" thinking that it's 10-1 in favour of NR, is because most of the talk and problems in the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) area are to do with infrastructure signalling problems - which of course is NR.  No-one is suggesting FGW are blameless.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

[a-driver]

I'm sure FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have done this internally & probably talking to NR^» (Network Rail - home page) constantly

I fear it's worse than that. I am sure NR have devoted a great amount of engineering management and planning effort to the parallel signalling/electrification/other works programmes, specifically to ensure this kind of self-inflicted damage does not happen. But it does. So there must be something wrong with the linkage between knowing what and how to do it and actually doing it that way. Or - which is not quite the same - writing your plan on the assumption something can be done this way, when in reality (at night at trackside in too little time and without the right staff) it can't.

I imagine that the staff on the ground know exactly what needs to be done.  But what they know needs to be done and what someone sitting in an ivory tower with a balance sheet on his/her computer screen eventually tells them to do are two very different things!

[grahame]

A HST^▸ (High Speed Train) starts to depart and a late passenger runs onto the platform and pulls a door "on-the-catch".  Train is stopped.  Door secured, needs re-dispatching etc.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW^▸ (First Great Western).

However, i'm merely pointing out that First Great Western (FGW) delay minutes are not black and white.  Of course broken down trains and staff issues (which are unacceptable) will add up in these figures, but the delays can also be caused by our beloved passengers/customers themselves.

I'm totally in agreement that a lot of attributions are pretty crude and with immediacy, the passengers may be to blame.  However, isn't it up to the train operator, the infrastructure company, and the regulation and ministry folks to provide infrastructure in which these passenger causes are minimised?

Taking your door dispatch example, if First Great Western (FGW) at one of the High Speed Train (HST) refurbs had fitted automatic plug doors as Chiltern have done on Mark 3 carriages, they would have eliminated the possibility of a late passenger unsecuring a door. So in reality, perhaps the root cause is a mixture of FGW and the passenger ...

A further example is perhaps when you might say that weather is the root cause .... only the case of the engineering isn't up to working in that poor weather, but it may not be worth spending millions on a once-in-40-years scenario.

A disabled passenger takes time to board a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Voyager after being booked by XC in the middle of a busy coach.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW as it's their station, although XC may take a share.  Those minutes add up quickly if the delay happens at Plymouth and the train is bound for Aberdeen.

Now that looks very heartfelt!   I'm guessing that FGW will be glad to have been rid of responsibility for BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) and RDG^‡(resolve) then?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

[Super Guard]

I'm totally in agreement that a lot of attributions are pretty crude and with immediacy, the passengers may be to blame.  However, isn't it up to the train operator, the infrastructure company, and the regulation and ministry folks to provide infrastructure in which these passenger causes are minimised?

Taking your door dispatch example, if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) at one of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) refurbs had fitted automatic plug doors as Chiltern have done on Mark 3 carriages, they would have eliminated the possibility of a late passenger unsecuring a door. So in reality, perhaps the root cause is a mixture of FGW and the passenger ...

A further example is perhaps when you might say that weather is the root cause .... only the case of the engineering isn't up to working in that poor weather, but it may not be worth spending millions on a once-in-40-years scenario.

Of course, but then FGW would be expecting to shift most of their overcrowding delay minutes on the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), "well we'd run more trains and reduce overcrowding delays if you let us have the rolling stock" and of course that isn't going to happen 

A disabled passenger takes time to board a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Voyager after being booked by XC in the middle of a busy coach.  Train is delayed.  Root cause = passenger.  Delay blame = FGW as it's their station, although XC may take a share.  Those minutes add up quickly if the delay happens at Plymouth and the train is bound for Aberdeen.

Now that looks very heartfelt!   I'm guessing that FGW will be glad to have been rid of responsibility for BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) and RDG^‡(resolve) then?
[/quote]

If the assistance staff are still FGW (I don't know if they are), then perhaps it's still FGW delay cost.

I was just trying to get the point across, that just because FGW get hit with a delay cost, doesn't necessarily mean it's because the company/staff are lazy/incompetent etc and in some cases is not actually FGW's fault at all, but the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) still takes the "blame".

[ChrisB]

Indeed, same goes with Network Rail (NR^» (Network Rail - home page)).

Suicide....delay minutes to Network Rail (NR). Passenger 'fault'

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

[stuving]

If the assistance staff are still FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (I don't know if they are), then perhaps it's still FGW delay cost.

Peering closely at the book of runes, there are no "Station Operator Codes", only "Station Operating Codes", of which it says:

These codes are for delays due to station activities. Incidents are attributable to the company running the train, and not the operator of the station.

While some of the causes listed don't involve a train, obviously there must be one (and its operator) for there to be a delay.

[JayMac]

Maybe apocryphal (although I'm sure I heard it mentioned in a TV documentary about the railways), small bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays a train after being hit - delay attribution to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). Pheasant or larger bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays... - delay attribution to Network Rail.

[stuving]

Maybe apocryphal (although I'm sure I heard it mentioned in a TV documentary about the railways), small bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays a train after being hit - delay attribution to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). Pheasant or larger bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays... - delay attribution to Network Rail.

Don't be silly - it's much more complicated than that! There's a flowchart. Its introduction says:

4.4.2 In the flowchart 4.4.3 below; the answer to the question as to whether the bird is the same size or smaller than a pheasant is to be determined by the average weight of the species of the bird involved, irrespective of the number of birds involved in the incident.

I don't think the flowchart would reproduce easily - it's on P 34 here.

[trainer]

My jaw has just hit the floor reading the document (or at least parts of it) referred to by stuving.  It's publication on 1st April may lead one to suppose a spoof: if it is it's the most intensive and demanding joke ever.  However, I fear its reality just re-enforces the impression that the lawyers have a very happy playground in this area.

[Western Pathfinder]

Maybe apocryphal (although I'm sure I heard it mentioned in a TV documentary about the railways), small bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays a train after being hit - delay attribution to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). Pheasant or larger bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays... - delay attribution to Network Rail.

I saw the self same programe you are right BNM

[stuving]

My jaw has just hit the floor reading the document (or at least parts of it) referred to by stuving.  It's publication on 1st April may lead one to suppose a spoof: if it is it's the most intensive and demanding joke ever.  However, I fear its reality just re-enforces the impression that the lawyers have a very happy playground in this area.

Yes, it does seem to have grown into as bit of a monster, doesn't it?

But if you did have a single railway business, I'm pretty sure you'd have a quite detailed system for recording the causes of delays, and counting them, according to who was responsible. For one thing the statistics might be demanded of you by, for example, politicians. Or your internal departmental accounts might involve budget transfers. And just because it is internal, that doesn't prevent squabbling over whose fault it was. An then there's trying to claim compensation from outside bodies, or at least providing a well-documented excuse for press briefings.

I find it hard to believe such a baroque system would result, but it might be a lot closer than you'd think at first.

[Super Guard]

Maybe apocryphal (although I'm sure I heard it mentioned in a TV documentary about the railways), small bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays a train after being hit - delay attribution to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). Pheasant or larger bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays... - delay attribution to Network Rail.

I saw the self same programe you are right BNM

I think it was the very well produced BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) documentary that ran for a few weeks featuring a large variety of the network.

[Super Guard]

My jaw has just hit the floor reading the document (or at least parts of it) referred to by stuving.  It's publication on 1st April may lead one to suppose a spoof: if it is it's the most intensive and demanding joke ever.  However, I fear its reality just re-enforces the impression that the lawyers have a very happy playground in this area.

Yes, it does seem to have grown into as bit of a monster, doesn't it?

But if you did have a single railway business, I'm pretty sure you'd have a quite detailed system for recording the causes of delays, and counting them, according to who was responsible. For one thing the statistics might be demanded of you by, for example, politicians. Or your internal departmental accounts might involve budget transfers. And just because it is internal, that doesn't prevent squabbling over whose fault it was. An then there's trying to claim compensation from outside bodies, or at least providing a well-documented excuse for press briefings.

I find it hard to believe such a baroque system would result, but it might be a lot closer than you'd think at first.

Agreed, any business that has to pay out a large amount of money in "fines" or has the ability to claim such money as compensation is of course going to invest time/money and want as detailed a system as possible of deciding "fault".

I'm sure insurance companies have even larger documents!

[Western Pathfinder]

Maybe apocryphal (although I'm sure I heard it mentioned in a TV documentary about the railways), small bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays a train after being hit - delay attribution to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). Pheasant or larger bird breaks a cab windscreen or otherwise delays... - delay attribution to Network Rail.

I saw the self same programe you are right BNM

I think it was the very well produced BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) documentary that ran for a few weeks featuring a large variety of the network.

I've just found it it's called  The Railway keeping Britain on track  four part broadcast on BBC Two in  2013.