Oxford Parkway to Marylebone (and other Chiltern Routes) timetable consultation

[whole diary]

[Btline]

What is it with this forum being obsessed with slowing down intercity trains to call at small village stations?

Islip station serves a tiny village and any "railheading" will use Bicester Town or Oxford Parkway.
It would be utterly stupid to add 3 minutes to more journeys, tipping them over the important hour mark. These trains are likely to be packed anyway with disgruntled ex-FGW^▸ (First Great Western) passengers, relived that they now have a decent service.

Fine, have a peak return journey and an off peak shoppers return journey per day. But quite frankly, Islip station should probably be shut down along with the Combe, Ascot-U-W and Finstock. I mean, next, people will be demanding these Oxford trains to stop at Denham Golf Club!

One disappointing aspect of the timetable is a lack of direct services to Brum from Thame Parkway. This station would get shoppers from Aylesbury and East Oxford heading to Birmingham.

[ChrisB]

Odd how it didn't when there *was* a direct train. There were more commuters than shoppers - but those can be counted on two hands....again, you have little idea of our rail area, Sir. It's about time you toned down your posts and asked those in the know what the position is.

Likewise the Islip services. Firstly, their car park is free, unlike Oxford Parkway or the Town station. There are a lot of Oxford commuters as there is zero employment locally. Why not invest a day's holiday & actually come and take a look.

Oh, the maximum journey time is 66mins....saving three won't make any difference to loadings.

[grahame]

What is it with this forum being obsessed with slowing down intercity trains to call at small village stations?

Running a high proportion of long distances expresses with very few stops is a vestage of a past era - when trains were pulled by steam engines that acceleated slowly, and required to run only over very gentle gradients.  A past era when carriages were of quite simple construction and relativley inexpensive to provide, and could be sensibly run on just one round trip a day. A past era when locomotives needed changing every journey, and indeed sometime mid journey.  A past era when a very high proportion of rail journeys were within built-up suburbs, with many of the remaining ones being intercity.   And a past era where people had a more relaxed lifestyle (work / commuting excepted, perhaps) and could reschedule their activities to make their intermediate and longer journeys when there happened to be a train, even if it meant quite a wait.   And a time / era when traffic was much less dense.

With these changes, some of which are continuing trends, it makes sense to check that service patterns on public transport are the best that can be achieved for current requirements, and don't hark back to a past era. I am struck by the high passenger numbers between intermediate stations - which has grown much more than end to end traffic as far as I can tell - on services like Plymouth to Glasgow, Portsmouth to Cardiff, and perhaps London to Worcester.  Where the opportunity to operate a service all the way (or part of the way) with a train with better acceleration offers itself, the modern way would usually seem to be a clockface service with a higher number of intermediate stops, rather than an occasional service that's a bit faster, interlaced with other slower services that make the stops.

I don't know Islip, but I can find you other stations that you, Btline, might consider unlikley which have done rather well when moved from a sparse to a reasonable service.

[John R]

Also, the Islip commuter services will be in the opposite direction to the main flow. So I don't think any additional calls will inconvenience the masses of disgruntled ex-FGW^▸ (First Great Western) passengers who you are convinced will defect to Chiltern.  You need to think through your arguments a bit more carefully.

[Btline]

But the whole point is that the current users of Islip station will likely use Bicester Town or Oxford Parkway!

Islip has a population of about 600 people. That does not warrant a fast rail service stopping. Most of the users must be railheaders who will switch. Oxford Parkway does not exist at the moment.

Stopping at Islip will slow down services from High Wycombe and Thame Parkway into Oxford.
For London, saving 3 minutes will make a big difference if the journey time dips below an hour.

If there was no Oxford Parkway planned, I would fully support the development of Islip into a P&R^▸ (Park and Ride) station to beat the deadly A34 queues.

[grahame]

I mean, next, people will be demanding these Oxford trains to stop at Denham Golf Club!

A slightly naughty spirit has pointed out to me that "Denham Golf Club" station is situated very close indeed to the M25 / M40 junction, and I believe that there is un-built-on non-agricultural land (a.k.a. a golf course) near the station.  In a parallel world, I can quite envisage such a location being chosen as West London Parkway, and becoming the terminus of the currently-planned-short Crossrail services that would turn back in the Old Oak area, via the old main line out of Paddington to High Wycombe.

With four to six trains per hour running right through central London, the station would then be a natural stop to drop off people from the Oxford area changing for central London (for whom neither Paddington nor Marylebone is really great as an arrival place), as well as for picking up on those services for those who do want to go into Marylebone.

Please forgive me my fun and "what-if" - this is not a serious suggestion!   Of course it would never happen, as I expect there are a few influential member at the golf club  ... and yet what we were told was "impossible" ten years ago can be happening today, so who knows by 2025?

[ChrisB]

Denham has a turn-back facility waiting to be built having been passively provided when the down platform was rebuilt

[ChrisB]

But the whole point is that the current users of Islip station will likely use Bicester Town or Oxford Parkway!

No they won't/don't.....

Before the line shut, the car park wasn't even full each/every day....most either walked or cycled to/from the station, and none used Bicester Town. So why will they change once the services run again?

(Agreed, there are twice hourly services going forward, which could make a difference, but not if you walk/cycle to the station, surely). Indeed, there is a case to say that those newly attracted to the service by driving from further afield would use Islip for the free parking & put up with a reduced service, in fact - so your logic is quite likely faulty....it could lead to paid parking there.

Islip has a population of about 600 people. That does not warrant a fast rail service stopping. Most of the users must be railheaders who will switch. Oxford Parkway does not exist at the moment

But there isn't a slow service that they can stop....

Stopping at Islip will slow down services from High Wycombe and Thame Parkway into Oxford

And where prey, is there any proof that there is any kind of pent-up demand for that route? i.e. there may be no pax.....Chiltern have their collective fingers crossed. Also, how many live at Haddenham? About the number-ish at Islip! Yes, it's a parkway station, but from the west side, wouldn't you simply drive to *Oxford* Parkway & get the train in from there?....go look at a map.

For London, saving 3 minutes will make a big difference if the journey time dips below an hour.

Tosh. Made no difference at Oxford when some services were reduced by 3 minutes.

If there was no Oxford Parkway planned, I would fully support the development of Islip into a P&R^▸ (Park and Ride) station to beat the deadly A34 queues.

You really have no idea have you? The road network (which you can easily check by looking at any map) wouldn't be able to support loads of cars driving into & through Islip. There's no main roads, all lanes. The locals would rightly fight any such proposal, rightly too.

Rather than just throw your words aty a keyboard, check or enquire before making suggestions such as these or you'll continually get shot-down.

[IndustryInsider]

Before the line shut, the car park wasn't even full each/every day....

That's right.  In fact it wasn't even close to being full.  Thirty or so spaces available and in the many hundreds of times I've been there I can't remember seeing more than a dozen cars parked there, with the average on a given weekday being about six!

[Btline]

No they won't/don't.....

Before the line shut, the car park wasn't even full each/every day....most either walked or cycled to/from the station, and none used Bicester Town. So why will they change once the services run again?

(Agreed, there are twice hourly services going forward, which could make a difference, but not if you walk/cycle to the station, surely). Indeed, there is a case to say that those newly attracted to the service by driving from further afield would use Islip for the free parking & put up with a reduced service, in fact - so your logic is quite likely faulty....it could lead to paid parking there.

Well, the London service hasn't started yet!
I suspect Chiltern could introduce parking charges. They did at Solihull; passenger numbers rose afterwards (probably because spaces were no longer used up by Touchwood shoppers!). Islip in this case would just be a duplicate station. Ignoring the 600 people living in the village, most would come from further afield to park and ride, and can use Bicester Town or Parkway.

But there isn't a slow service that they can stop....

Exactly! I don't believe the East West services will stop either. Why would they slow down a fast service to MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) to serve a village of 600 people who can use Bicester Town or Parkway? As I said, a couple of services into Oxford is all that's required.

And where prey, is there any proof that there is any kind of pent-up demand for that route? i.e. there may be no pax.....Chiltern have their collective fingers crossed. Also, how many live at Haddenham? About the number-ish at Islip! Yes, it's a parkway station, but from the west side, wouldn't you simply drive to *Oxford* Parkway & get the train in from there?....go look at a map.

People from the Aylesbury area use Thame Parkway to access Bham. They may park at Thame Parkway and travel into Oxford (perhaps unlikely).
High Wycombe is one of the biggest centres in Bucks - it is inconceivable that there won't be demand between the two! It is one of Chiltern's key markets to take cars off the M40. Also another reason to keep journey times competitive.

Tosh. Made no difference at Oxford when some services were reduced by 3 minutes.

59 minutes is mentally a lot better than 1 hour 2 minutes. Especially for marketing.

You really have no idea have you? The road network (which you can easily check by looking at any map) wouldn't be able to support loads of cars driving into & through Islip. There's no main roads, all lanes. The locals would rightly fight any such proposal, rightly too.

Rather than just throw your words aty a keyboard, check or enquire before making suggestions such as these or you'll continually get shot-down.

Woh - I'm sorry, no need for that!
I do know the area - having been stuck in the queues many a time! My point was, a parkway station was needed in that area, not two. Chiltern clearly agree.

Just because you disagree (and think the trains should be slowed down to serve a tiny village just a couple of miles away from Parkway), there's no need to be so angry.

[Btline]

A slightly naughty spirit has pointed out to me that "Denham Golf Club" station is situated very close indeed to the M25 / M40 junction, and I believe that there is un-built-on non-agricultural land (a.k.a. a golf course) near the station.  In a parallel world, I can quite envisage such a location being chosen as West London Parkway, and becoming the terminus of the currently-planned-short Crossrail services that would turn back in the Old Oak area, via the old main line out of Paddington to High Wycombe.

With four to six trains per hour running right through central London, the station would then be a natural stop to drop off people from the Oxford area changing for central London (for whom neither Paddington nor Marylebone is really great as an arrival place), as well as for picking up on those services for those who do want to go into Marylebone.

Please forgive me my fun and "what-if" - this is not a serious suggestion!   Of course it would never happen, as I expect there are a few influential member at the golf club  ... and yet what we were told was "impossible" ten years ago can be happening today, so who knows by 2025?

Cilla Black would not be happy! I agree that Denham Golf Club was a poor example. Replace it with SAUNDERTON.

The problem Chiltern has, is that it runs a 4 track service on a 2 track railway. All the stations from Gerrards Cross in deserve a 4tph or greater frequency. But they simply cannot be fitted onto 2 tracks (or at Marylebone). As these stations have Tube as a substitute, there is no need for the investment at the moment.

[ChrisB]

I suspect Chiltern could introduce parking charges. ]

They may very well - but that doesn't back up your assertion(s) does it?

I don't believe the East West services will stop either. Why would they slow down a fast service to MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) to serve a village of 600 people who can use Bicester Town or Parkway? As I said, a couple of services into Oxford is all that's required.

I think that's exactly what East West Rail will supply Islip with.....but there's little difference really between "a couple" and 8 a day (which Chiltern will supply) with twice hourly services throughout the day.

People from the Aylesbury area use Thame Parkway to access Bham. They may park at Thame Parkway and travel into Oxford (perhaps unlikely).

Oddly, more likely an Aylesbury / Oxford flow than a Birmingham flow, which doesn't exactly exist now in great numbers & the Oxford trains won't generate anything extra from Aylesbury towards Birmingham.

High Wycombe is one of the biggest centres in Bucks - it is inconceivable that there won't be demand between the two! It is one of Chiltern's key markets to take cars off the M40. Also another reason to keep journey times competitive.

Hmm, I remain to be persuaded that there's much motor commuter traffic twixt the two now. Yes, it may encourage Wycombe-ites to look for Oxford jobs, I agree. But with only an hourly service being proposed, it seems that Chiltern possibly agree with me....

59 minutes is mentally a lot better than 1 hour 2 minutes. Especially for marketing.

Depends on current journey times by car. Possibly, if the car journey is taking close to that figure currently, I don't know how long peak driving takes. But if that was currently 90+mins, say, a difference of 3mins (so 59 or 62mins) train would still be quicker than the car, and make zero difference in attracting the motorist.

Woh - I'm sorry, no need for that!
I do know the area - having been stuck in the queues many a time! My point was, a parkway station was needed in that area, not two. Chiltern clearly agree.

And there's only ever going to be one as Islip won't become a part & ride. It was you who said it would....

Just because you disagree (and think the trains should be slowed down to serve a tiny village just a couple of miles away from Parkway), there's no need to be so angry.

That's because of the way you express your views over-forcibly. Calm down, and construct your arguments, rather than simply plastering the board with unsubstantiated views. You'll learn, I hope.

[trainer]

I suspect Chiltern could introduce parking charges. They did at Solihull; passenger numbers rose afterwards (probably because spaces were no longer used up by Touchwood shoppers!).

I think you'll find that parking at Solihull Station as opposed to the car parks at the Touchwood shopping mall would not have been the first choice for all but the most parsimonious of car-borne shoppers.  It's a good half-mile from the station car park and involves crossing a very busy road junction.  Rail travellers might even think about using the frequent buses to get them there if uncertain of the walk.  Possibly not the best example for your case.

[Btline]

I think that's exactly what East West Rail will supply Islip with.....but there's little difference really between "a couple" and 8 a day (which Chiltern will supply) with twice hourly services throughout the day.

Well, I still don't believe Islip deserves a half hourly service!

Oddly, more likely an Aylesbury / Oxford flow than a Birmingham flow, which doesn't exactly exist now in great numbers & the Oxford trains won't generate anything extra from Aylesbury towards Birmingham.

I would disagree - many evening services from Brun stop at Thame and a lot of people get off, many heading for Aylesbury.

Hmm, I remain to be persuaded that there's much motor commuter traffic twixt the two now. Yes, it may encourage Wycombe-ites to look for Oxford jobs, I agree. But with only an hourly service being proposed, it seems that Chiltern possibly agree with me....

I suppose it's a market that could grow. But I distinctly remember Chiltern saying that linking the two was a major aim of the project.

Depends on current journey times by car. Possibly, if the car journey is taking close to that figure currently, I don't know how long peak driving takes. But if that was currently 90+mins, say, a difference of 3mins (so 59 or 62mins) train would still be quicker than the car, and make zero difference in attracting the motorist.

Disagree - and I think other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) agree with me. Didn't Virgin market their fastest Manchester as 1 hr 59 min?

And there's only ever going to be one as Islip won't become a part & ride. It was you who said it would....

Just because you disagree (and think the trains should be slowed down to serve a tiny village just a couple of miles away from Parkway), there's no need to be so angry.

That's because of the way you express your views over-forcibly. Calm down, and construct your arguments, rather than simply plastering the board with unsubstantiated views. You'll learn, I hope.

Hmmm - me calm down? No comment... 

I think you'll find that parking at Solihull Station as opposed to the car parks at the Touchwood shopping mall would not have been the first choice for all but the most parsimonious of car-borne shoppers.  It's a good half-mile from the station car park and involves crossing a very busy road junction.  Rail travellers might even think about using the frequent buses to get them there if uncertain of the walk.  Possibly not the best example for your case.

Whether or not this is the case, I suspect that non rail use of the car park will have plummeted now!

[IndustryInsider]

Chiltern have launched a consultation for their new timetable, for when Oxford Parkway station is due to open next September.

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/news/september-2015-timetable-consultation

A quick glance gives the expected two trains an hour between Oxford Parkway and Marylebone, with some journeys taking as little as 57/58 minutes.  The peak hour trains often take a few minutes longer, although there are at least a couple that remain around the hour mark in each direction.  Oxford to High Wycombe takes just over 30 minutes with a roughly hourly frequency.

Islip sees its service reduced to just seven trains a day, as had been speculated, with a four hour gap in the afternoon to Oxford, and a ridiculous four-and-a-half hour gap from Oxford to Islip from 08:47 to 13:15.  Until the main link into Oxford opens, demand from Islip to Oxford will be a little suppressed, but those gaps need filling and an choice of commuting trains into Oxford and Bicester would be nice, which would be possible if just one more morning and evening train stopped each way.

One other clear improvement that could be made (in the fairly short time I've had to examine it) is the first train from Bicester to Oxford which is scheduled for 07:07 arriving at Oxford Parkway 07:18.  There are four departures from Parkway to Marylebone before that, so the sets must be coming ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) from somewhere - why on earth not run at least one of them in service to give a pre-7am arrival time into Oxford as has been the case for many years?

Obviously this is just a staged timetable until the line through to Oxford (proper) opens, and commuting from both Bicester and Islip into Oxford will be a little suppressed until the whole line opens, but I hope that the issues above can be resolved before then, and if so it looks like a cracking timetable.

The proposed timetable for the Chiltern Line from October is available on their website:

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/october-timetable

Very pleased to see that some of the suggestions I (and doubtless many others too) made have been taken on board.  The main one is the addition of an early 06:05 train from Bicester to Oxford Parkway calling at Islip.  Also Islip's offering is now much better than on the original consultation (though still worse than before) with 9 Oxford bound trains and 8 Marylebone bound trains - the peak hour services are much better, though big gaps still remain at other times of the day when there used to be trains.

The full benefit of the service won't be realised until the link to the main station at Oxford opens (hopefully next year still!), especially for those commuting between Bicester/Islip and Oxford, but some promising changes to the original consultation timetable have improved it significantly.