Petition to extend London Zone 6 to Staines and Ashford stations

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

From Get Surrey

Olivia Coskie started the petition because she felt the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) rules are confusing and unfair         
 
A city worker from Ashford has received almost 700 signatures in three days after starting a petition to get Staines and Ashford railway stations to be included in Zone 6 of the London transport network.

Olivia Coskie, 26, started the petition on September 2.

She said: ^Staines and Ashford are being developed, flats are being built in the area and although some people may not like it, the boundaries of London are increasing. The use of Oyster cards is permitted in the area which makes it confusing for passengers when they cannot use them for rail travel.

"The amount of times I have had to queue to get off the station, because of ticket checks at Ashford, has been ridiculous, with people being treated like criminals when the Oyster/Zone 6 boundaries are not very well advertised.

^Staines and Ashford are within the M25, so one day we will be classed as London.

^Being classed within the zones of London Transport will add value to our property and lessen our travel fare ^ which is essentially what this petition is all about ^ hence the large amount of signatures.^

Within 48 hours Miss Coskie had already reached the 500-name mark.

Rebecca Thomas, from Staines, posted on the petition website: ^I have to commute to London every day for work, I live in Ashford and feel it^s very unfair being so close to Feltham, which is in Zone 6, and knowing that Staines and Ashford are some of the busiest train stations.

"Adding Staines and Ashford to Zone 6 would bring down fines and mean less hassle for all parties involved.^

Last month, a planning consultant revived the debate about whether parts of northern Surrey should be reclassified as parts of the capital. The idea was rejected by councillor for Staines South, Colin Davis.

Reacting to the petition, Cllr Davis said: ^Having better links to the London boroughs has always been highly desirable.

^But this is not new, it has been attempted in the past, with little enthusiasm from South West Trains.^

Miss Coskie has a target of 2,000 signatures for the petition which is addressed to the CEOs^▸ (Chief Executive Officer) of South West Trains, National Rail, and Travel for London, and wants to reach her goal before the 3.5% rise in rail fares happens in January.

To sign the petition, visit www.change.org/p/mr-tim-shoveller-make-staines-ashford-surrey-zone-6.

Crossrail might add some zones, but no way on earth would the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) allow these to be added to Zone 6.

[Red Squirrel]

Had me a bit confused until I worked out that they mean Ashford Middx, not Ashford Kent!

[paul7575]

Had me a bit confused until I worked out that you mean Ashford Surrey, not Ashford Middx...   

Looks suspiciously like someone has been PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d for trying to use Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) outside the zonal area doesn't it.  I saw that once at Southampton, perhaps that should also be in zone 6.   Confusing, is it really?   All the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) station name boards within the zones have the relevant zone marked.  Here's a big hint, when the numbers stop you are outside the zones...

So the petitioner basically wants cheaper fares. She won't get that, what she might get is smart card through ticketing availability, using ITSO.

Paul

[SDS]

Oh yeah Lets extend Zone 6 to Heathrow on HC, to Slough, to Maidenhead, in fact why not just extend it to Reading.

Oh and did anyone notice that the new Shoreditch High Street London Overground station got very quietly slipped into Zone 1?

[paul7575]

Oh and did anyone notice that the new Shoreditch High Street London Overground station got very quietly slipped into Zone 1?

I think it was well known both before and at the time the station opened and the reason was that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) insisted upon it to prevent loss of revenue.

Paul

[ellendune]

Oh yeah Lets extend Zone 6 to Heathrow on HC, to Slough, to Maidenhead, in fact why not just extend it to Reading.

Heathrow is already in Zone 6.
And if HC means Hammersmith & City it is not on that as it stops at Hammersmith!

[SDS]

Oh yeah Lets extend Zone 6 to Heathrow on HC, to Slough, to Maidenhead, in fact why not just extend it to Reading.

Heathrow is already in Zone 6.
And if HC means Hammersmith & City it is not on that as it stops at Hammersmith!

HC aka Heathrow Connect. If you go via the BAA/HAL owned track between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow CTA^▸ (Compulsory Ticket Area) its not zone 6.

[Red Squirrel]

Had me a bit confused until I worked out that you mean Ashford Surrey, not Ashford Middx...   

OK, I'll promise not to say 'Middlesex' if everyone else promises to stop saying 'Avon'... :-)

[grahame]

Ashford (the one in question) isn't in a marginal constituency either, so even the cynical wouldn't see it being done as an electoral sweetner.

Looking wider (i.e. at a ring all around London), there are substantial areas outside London where (however) the majority of jobs are within London, and there might be logic in extending London't travel to that area - zones 7, 8, 9 perhaps?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-might-have-to-be-expanded-to-swallow-up-commuter-belt-towns-such-as-epsom-spelthorne-and-three-rivers-9707887.html

Of course "the majority" of jobs in London is just one way of looking at how London-centric an area is.  If you drew a map showing 40% London jobs, 30% london jobs, etc, you have a series of alternative and wider rings and there's sense in having a common fares approach where a substantial minority is involved.   This may have been the idea behind Network South East (Can anyone confirm)?

The next level out - from the NSE^▸ (Network South East) area - again has a jump just like the one we're told happens to Ashford.  In the NSE area from Didcot, a day return to London costs 59 (peak) and at the first station outside the area, with no day return, a period return costs 121 (peak).   The difference of 62 pounds for a 48 mile round trip is about 1.30 (1 pound 30p) per mile;  of course, we shouldn't calculate it like that, but rather on the 43 pounds anytime day return from Swindon to Didcot so that we're comparing apples with apples.

Alas, I would not expect a request to include Swindon within the NSE area for fares to be taken seriously, even though the border of the area seems illogical at times ... but then again, will there be a time that a day return from Swindon to London is offered?   After all, it's only about an hour's run.

[ellendune]

In the NSE^▸ (Network South East) area from Didcot, a day return to London costs 59 (peak) and at the first station outside the area, with no day return, a period return costs 121 (peak).   The difference of 62 pounds for a 48 mile round trip is about 1.30 (1 pound 30p) per mile;  of course, we shouldn't calculate it like that, but rather on the 43 pounds anytime day return from Swindon to Didcot so that we're comparing apples with apples.

Alas, I would not expect a request to include Swindon within the NSE area for fares to be taken seriously, even though the border of the area seems illogical at times ... but then again, will there be a time that a day return from Swindon to London is offered?   After all, it's only about an hour's run.

Precisely the point I was making in another place http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14530.msg160834#msg160834

Moving the border would be just be illogical.  It is having a border at all that is illogical. 

[paul7575]

The tone of the article is, as usual, that 'introducing Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)' will by itself reduce fares, but in all the areas where it was extended over the last few years it has basically been done by introducing additional 'pseudo zones'.  The fare stays just the same as it always was, it just gets added to the PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) scheme.  It adds convenience - while simultaneously removing the normal national fare types like CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')), as they did in zones 1-6 a few years back.   Be careful what you wish for...

As we've discussed before the best example of this was Watford Junction, which is in a non publicised 'zone W' for back office processing, whereas the Oyster map simply shows it as outside zone 8 and the text reads 'special fares apply'.  Similarly stations ohm the c2c route to the east of the original zones are in something called zone G.

Oyster is becoming history now though, any expansion will probably be under the ITSO card system.

Paul

[John R]

^Being classed within the zones of London Transport will add value to our property and lessen our travel fare ^ which is essentially what this petition is all about ^ hence the large amount of signatures.^

No self interest there then.

[Surrey 455]

I remember reading on the same website last year that Epsom could possibly be included in zone 6. SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and Southern apparently have no objections. Ewell West and Ewell East are the next stations from Epsom  towards London and despite being not in London they are in zone 6.

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/epsom-continues-journey-zone-6-4721062

EPSOM'S MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) has had the nod from the Department for Transport to move forward with plans to extend London's Zone 6 to include the town's railway station.

Mr Grayling held a meeting with Transport Minister Norman Baker to discuss Epsom station being included as part of the capital's transport zone for rail fares, and he agreed to write to local train companies giving them permission to start discussions on the subject.

Southern Railway and South West Trains must agree in order for it to go ahead, but both have previously indicated to Mr Grayling that they are not opposed to the move.

The MP, who has been campaigning on "a battle he wants Epsom to win" since last year, said it would mean commuters could use Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) cards making travel easier and cheaper.

He also believes it would encourage more Londoners to visit the town and therefore boost the local economy.

A number of stations which are further out from central London, such as Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Tadworth, are already part of Zone 6.

[Kernow Otter]

Lostwithiel has been in Zone 6 for years. 

[grahame]

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_in_London_fare_zone_6

January 1991: zone 6 created from part of zone 5
January 1997: Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping from outside the zones to zone 6 and Moor Park from zone A to zone 6/A boundary
January 2005: Cheam and Belmont from zone 6 to zone 5
January 2006: Whyteleafe, Whyteleafe South, Caterham, Banstead, Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner, Tadworth, Kingswood, Chipstead and Upper Warlingham from outside the zones to zone 6
January 2007: Stoneleigh from zone 6 to zone 5 and Ewell East & Ewell West from outside the zones to zone 6