Off Peak Query

[whole diary]

[John R]

Mrs R had to travel from NLS to Chippenham today. On nationalrail.co.uk the return fare travelling out on the 0828 is shown as 12.40 return.  However, the ticket machine tried to charge her 32.00.  On enquiry at the ticket office she was told that 32.00 is correct.

Can anyone advise which is correct?

It's also an absurdity that an anytime return NLS to BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) is 4.60 and from BRI to CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains) is 11.10 (total 15.70) and yet the anytime return from NLS to CPM is 32.00.

Am I right in thinking that the next time Mrs R is best advised to buy online and take a copy of the itinerary with her to prove it?

[didcotdean]

Looking at brfares.com it indicates the off peak fare is on or after 8:33 Mon-Fri with code WG. The peak fare is applied to the 8:28 at Redspottedhanky.

[didcotdean]

Should have included above that I can replicate the cheap day fare at National Rail and purchase it through various sites at that price (if I continued). Something must be up here.

[JayMac]

Hmm...

This one is possibly down to interpretation of the restriction text. And/or human error on the part of the ticket seller at Nailsea & Backwell (NLS)

The restriction text for the ^12.40 Off Peak Return says:

Tickets are valid on all
trains timed to depart at or
later that 0833, unless travel
is from a station listed below
where tickets are valid on all
services timed to depart at or
later than the time shown:

FROM:
Avoncliff 0820
Avonmouth 0750
Bradford on Avon 0815
Cheltenham Spa 0825
Chippenham 0815
Clifton Down 0805
Ivybridge 0810
Lawrence Hill 0815
Menheniot  0810
Montpelier  0810
Newton Abbot 0825
Redland  0805
St. Andrews Road 0745
St. Germans 0815
Saltash 0810
Sea Mills 0800
Severn Beach 0740
Shirehampton 0755
Stapleton Road 0810
Swindon 0820
Westbury 0822
Weston-Super-Mare  0820
Worcester Shrub Hill 0825

TRAVEL FROM STATIONS NOT
LISTED ABOVE:
Off-Peak tickets from
stations not listed are valid
for connections into trains
departing as shown above.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=NLS&dest=CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains)&tkt=SVR

What that appears to show is that, for the Bristol area, connections can be made with the 0900 service toward Swindon, so it would seem logical for stations between Weston-super-Mare and Bristol TM^‡(resolve) to also be included in the list. However, you can't connect into the 0900 from Weston itself as you'd need to take the 0808. Which is the service that calls at NLS at 0828.

But, then there is that final sentence, "Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above." NLS is not listed above so the ticket should be valid for connections into services departing after 0833, i.e. the 0900 from Bristol TM. That would appear to be the interpretation National Rail Enquiries is taking, as well as the couple of booking engines I've tried.

You mentioned 'ticket office'. Are we talking about the man/woman in the cabin at NLS with a handheld Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains)? Avantix can sell time restricted tickets at any time, so it may work to show him/her the itinerary from NRE^‡(resolve), but, as you say, an easier life, would be to buy online and collect from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at NLS.

Finally it is indeed absurd that, should you wish to travel earlier than 0828, it is less than half the price to split at Bristol TM for a day return to Chippenham. However, the through fare at ^32.00 does have an outward validity of 5 days and a return validity of 1 month. But, even if you have to travel out one day and back another in the morning peaks in both directions, a combination of Anytime Day Singles split at Bristol TM will still be cheaper than ^32.00. Only if you need that flexibility to make your outward journey on any one of 5 days from date of purchase, and you can't be bothered to buy your tickets on the day, does the ^32.00 fare make the slightest bit of sense. Madness.

Looking at brfares.com it indicates the off peak fare is on or after 8:33 Mon-Fri with code WG. The peak fare is applied to the 8:28 at Redspottedhanky.

The ^32.00 fare is not applied by RSH. Sample booking for tomorrow shows I can use the ^12.40 Off Peak Return on the 0828.



FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s website concurs. As do thetrainline based websites such as that used by South West Trains.

Should have included above that I can replicate the cheap day fare at National Rail and purchase it through various sites at that price (if I continued). Something must be up here.

Small pedantic point. The ^12.40 fare under discussion is not a 'cheap day' fare. it's an Off Peak Return (formerly Saver) valid for return up to one month.

[Trowres]

The restriction code applied to the journey appears to have exactly the same conditions for the return journey. I therefore tried CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains)->NLS with a return commencing after 08:00 the following day. In this instance NationalRail did *not* allow the 08:28.

But, then there is that final sentence, "Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above." NLS is not listed above so the ticket should be valid for connections into services departing after 0833, i.e. the 0900 from Bristol TM^‡(resolve). That would appear to be the interpretation National Rail Enquiries is taking, as well as the couple of booking engines I've tried.

I've never understood this part of the restrictions that BNM has quoted. It seems to mean as BNM has interpreted, with which I would agree, but the journey planners don't seem to agree usually. Reading down the brfares.com restrictions, the "unpublished restrictions" for use in journey planners contradicts this interpretation.

[didcotdean]

Yes sorry checking back it was the Off peak day return that the RSH app was disallowing rather than the off peak return also hence my confusion over the ticket names. Should have left it to someone more familiar with the area.

[JayMac]

The restriction code applied to the journey appears to have exactly the same conditions for the return journey. I therefore tried CPM^» (Chippenham - next trains)->NLS with a return commencing after 08:00 the following day. In this instance NationalRail did *not* allow the 08:28.

Yep. I noticed that as well. What were there consistency, eh? 

But, then there is that final sentence, "Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above." NLS is not listed above so the ticket should be valid for connections into services departing after 0833, i.e. the 0900 from Bristol TM^‡(resolve). That would appear to be the interpretation National Rail Enquiries is taking, as well as the couple of booking engines I've tried.

I've never understood this part of the restrictions that BNM has quoted. It seems to mean as BNM has interpreted, with which I would agree, but the journey planners don't seem to agree usually. Reading down the brfares.com restrictions, the "unpublished restrictions" for use in journey planners contradicts this interpretation.

Fortunately the law is on the side of the passenger. if there is ambiguity in a term that forms part of a contract between service provider and customer, the interpretation more favourable to the customer shall prevail. Numerous sources allow, and will sell the Off Peak ticket (thus completing a contract), to travel on the 0828 from NLS and later connecting into a service departing after 0833. That adds weight to my interpretation. As always though, IANAL^▸ ('I am not a lawyer'.)*. 

Yes sorry checking back it was the Off peak day return that the RSH app was disallowing rather than the off peak return also hence my confusion over the ticket names. Should have left it to someone more familiar with the area.

No need to apologise. Fares validities are a minefield that requires careful negotiation. Even the best of us sometimes take a wrong step. Fortunately, mild embarrassment is the only injury. No limbs are lost. 


*Yes, my fellow pedants. I've just added it to the Abbreviations/Acronyms page 

[JayMac]

A point I've not yet addressed. For the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter).

John R. If Mrs R did indeed pay ^32.00 for travel on the 0828 I'd suggest a complaint be made, requesting a refund by cheque (not in Rail Travel Vouchers) of the difference. With an additional payment for time and effort expended researching.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are selling the ^12.40 fare online, and National Rail Enquiries (the definitive source for customer information) concur that the ^12.40 fare is valid on the 0828, then, in my opinion, this is a clear case of overcharging by the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and person to whom the enquiry was made in the ticket office.

Obviously there's a small risk that the restriction is amended to be unambiguously less favourable, but in this case I do think it's down to the intended interpretation allowing travel on the 0828, but with the wording not being clear and the TVM and ticket office staff taking the less favourable interpretation.

[John R]

BNM

I've been deliberately vague as to what Mrs R was actually sold until now to protect the ticket office staff (yes, man in the cabin with an Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains)).  She was sold the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) ticket on a "just this once" basis, which seemed curious to me given the risk of an onboard check, although  from the discussions to date, it appears to be the correct fare.  Her ticket was checked almost as soon as she boarded, and was accepted without question.

In future, for an easy life she will buy online and collect from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) with a copy of the itinerary, but that doesn't help anyone else being overcharged.

[John R]

And thank you all for all the research done on Mrs R's behalf. She was very impressed!  (...as opposed to the usual "are you on that Coffee Shop again?")

[JayMac]

And thank you all for all the research done on Mrs R's behalf. She was very impressed!  (...as opposed to the usual "are you on that Coffee Shop again?")

Glad to be of assistance.

It's a shame though that the likely outcome is to resort to purchase elsewhere than at the station.

I lay no blame whatsoever at the staff selling tickets. They are only as good as their training and the tools they are given. Situations like this go beyond the staff member who erred. Blame lies entirely with those further up the chain.

Do continue to use the human facility provided at your local station. An itinerary printout or any correspondence received following comment to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) should, I hope, be enough to ensure the correct ticket, for the journey being undertaken, is sold.

My best wishes to Mrs R. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

... Mrs R ... was very impressed!  (...as opposed to the usual "are you on that Coffee Shop again?")

As an aside, John R and I enjoyed a chat over a beer in Nailsea one evening last week, and we commiserated with each other that our respective spouses apparently share a similar sense of righteous outrage over the amount of time we each spend on this excellent Coffee Shop forum ... 

[John R]

Was it really only one beer? Oh yes, that's what I told Mrs R when I staggered in.