Basic (and cheaper) or Grand (and more expensive)?

[whole diary]

[Rhydgaled]

We know funds are tight, but the pepole that make things happen like to put their names to grand projects. For examples of the latter, see HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and the proposed second M4 around Newport. Therefore, is it easier to get backing for a relatively small campaign* or for a bigger project** with a catchy marketing tag (the idea I've had is 'Project 70')? Could there even be a 'best of both worlds' way of pitching it, which increases the chance of getting backing for either the grand or the lite version of the scheme?

* improved service only
** infrustructure upgrades too

[grahame]

I suspect it's easier to get backing for a lower cost scheme, but that ease is not in proportion to the cost. So a scheme for X million pounds takes ten Y units of effort to get backing for, whereas a scheme for X thousand pounds takes Y units of effort.

[Rhydgaled]

I suspect it's easier to get backing for a lower cost scheme, but that ease is not in proportion to the cost. So a scheme for X million pounds takes ten Y units of effort to get backing for, whereas a scheme for X thousand pounds takes Y units of effort.

Interesting thought, seems to be a good answer to the question.

I've just thought of some futher elaboration which I have added to the original post.

[John R]

We know funds are tight, but the pepole that make things happen like to put their names to grand projects. For examples of the latter, see HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and the proposed second M4 around Newport.

* improved service only
** infrustructure upgrades too

I'm not such I'd regard the new M4 around Newport as a Grand Projet. Around 15 miles of motorway much of which is through the old steelworks, with one reasonable size bridge over the Usk? Hardly. And long overdue. Even the Welsh Government tried to kill it off only to come back tail between their legs a few years later and admit that there's no sensible alternative.

[DavidBrown]

If we take the M4 as an example, the idea is that a 'grander' scheme is the only realistic option as there is already a cheaper, poorer quality route in use in the form of the M4 as it is today. The M4 is over-capacity and needs relieving. A 'basic' scheme has already been built to the south with the A48 distributor road - with no effect on the M4 at all (and to be fair, no effect was anticipated at the time of construction).

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is similar in that it is designed to relieve pressure on major lines like the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) as well as speed up travelling times. Again, more 'basic' schemes have already been completed on the WCML, but the capacity problem is still there.

In basic terms;
The M4 is full, so new capacity is needed through a new route.
The WCML is full, so new capacity is needed through a new route.
Both have had cheaper options implemented. Both still have the same underlying problem.

[grahame]

I suspect it's easier to get backing for a lower cost scheme, but that ease is not in proportion to the cost. So a scheme for X million pounds takes ten Y units of effort to get backing for, whereas a scheme for X thousand pounds takes Y units of effort.

Interesting thought, seems to be a good answer to the question.

I've just thought of some futher elaboration which I have added to the original post.

I love moving goal posts 

In answer to the follow-up, we certainly found when looking for TransWilts improvements that we were beneath the radar for some schemes because we already had a service (of sorts) running ... "you can't be a member of our club because you already have trains" on one side, and yet "you can't be a member of our club because you don't have a marketable train service" on the other.  However, irritating though that situation was, I still believe looking back that it would have been pretty darned hard if we had had to get a re-opening.

Steps up from minimal service to useful service do seem to go pretty close to unnoticed at a national press / enthusiast level compared to new openings. Looking at places like Manea (quite recently) and Dronfield (a while back now), I can't say that I feel they were all that noticed on the radar - but then if you don't actually want to travel to / from Manea, how much difference is it going to make to you; local publicity is far more important.

[Lee]

I'm afraid I would have to completely disagree regarding Dronfield - that was HUGE at a national press / enthusiast level, not least due to the superb combined publicity efforts of the station Friends group and local MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) Natascha Engel, which were instrumental in getting the powers that be to facilitate their version of an appropriate service.

Indeed we should not forget that Friends of Dronfield Station kindly chose to use some of that positive publicity capital to help intervene on the TransWilts behalf by writing to Mark Hopwood, who replied by not only congratulating them on their success but also assured them that he was doing all he could to bring an appropriate service to our part of the world.

Personally, I would have no hesitation whatsoever in holding the Dronfield folks up both as a campaign model, and as a model traditional Station Friends group (winner of ACORPs^▸ (Association of Community Rail Partnerships) Best Station Garden award in 2012),  and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in that view.

[grahame]

...

I love moving goal posts 

Looking at places like Manea (quite recently) ....

Manea in the news again.   And a reminder to us all the goal posts can move in the wrong direction too, even after phenomenal success.   From the Wisbech Standard

A promised hourly rail service from Manea that would connect the village more regularly with Peterborough and Ipswich has been put on hold indefinitely.

Members of the Manea station adopters group - a scheme whereby communities can communicate with rail operator Greater Anglia - revealed the news in a social media post today.

The group says it met with Greater Anglia senior managers, including Jamie Burles the Abellio Greater Anglia managing director, in Ipswich last week.

"With a heavy heart we have to report that Mr Burles confirmed that the promised hourly service, due to start in December this year, is now highly unlikely to take place," the Manea group reported.

Looking far more locally, I remain concerned at the proposed 2020 timetable for the TransWilts.  I flagged up to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) some concerns on the draft (then planned to start today) way back last July.   A further meeting about 3 months ago gave the impression that the concerns listed all that time ago hadn't really been looked at for six months, and the points were re-raised by TransWilts at that point.  I am told they expect to hear back in June, but I fear that the hearing back will be a confirmation of the draft, rather than (m)any fixes.   There are some good things in there - but  they are outweighed by the negatives, and it's my view that more could be done to fix things without upsetting other lines or budgets - the real problem is lack of enough resource (GWR and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) management) to do more than bung in something simple that meets the current SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment), then say "job done", move on to the next job, and defend the solution that operationally works but will mess up some significant flows.

I have all my fingers and all my toes crossed with regard to the Saturday and Sunday services, where we haven't even been given the respect of any consultation.

[CyclingSid]

As far as local government is concerned, with my usual cynical hat on, they will prefer to "buy" something they can have their photo taken in front of and get some local media coverage. Improving the drains (not a Spoonerism) rarely cuts it.

[Rhydgaled]

As far as local government is concerned, with my usual cynical hat on, they will prefer to "buy" something they can have their photo taken in front of and get some local media coverage.

Well, my 'Project 70' (the reason for this topic, but I'm deliberately keeping this topic a bit vauge in an attempt to provoke responses that would also be applicable to other campaigns) would be a new train service on existing lines calling at existing stations (and possibly one new station). So there would be a photo op. in front of the first service either way, if any version of the scheme ever came to fruition. Essentially the options are:

• Basic 1 train each way per day service, at peak times
• Hourly service with existing infrustructure
• Hourly service with new station
• Hourly service with linespeed improvements to target a 70 minute journey time ('Project 70')
• Hourly service with new station and linespeed improvements to target a 70 minute journey time ('Project 70')

The latter are certainly more headline grabing, but significantly more expensive