Travelling in standard with a first ticket

[whole diary]

[LiskeardRich]

I have some complimentary anytime first class tickets (sent to me after my complaint, see frequent posters area)

For one of my journeys can I use it to travel in standard? I will be travelling with my 4 year old daughter up to Gatwick so in my view using first class may not be appropriate with a 4 year old.

It says in the terms and conditions I may use standard class if first class doesn't exist. I would take Amelia in first class if it came to it though if the terms meant I needed to use first class

Any advice on this please would be great please- either about using my complimentary First in standard, or travelling first class with a 4 year old.

[Rhydgaled]

I'm no expert on fares, but I'd be supprised if you aren't allowed to travel in standard on an ANYTIME first ticket. An ADVANCE first might be different, since the terms may require you to sit in your reserved seat.

[grahame]

I wondered this the other week when reading the back of one of those tickets; at that point it was just curiosity as the opportunity was a very rare treat - however in reading up now (following your question) I note

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46544.aspx

Conditions of use
You must travel in the class of accommodation shown on your ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

Your obligations
You must:
^ Travel in the right train(s) and the right part of the train(s) - otherwise you could be charged an excess or Penalty Fare. You may only change from standard class to first class areas if a member of staff in that train gives permission or you have paid the appropriate additional fare.

(my emphasis  - then the following sentence muddies the waters and reads just one way, remind you not to be upsitting, but it does not exclude downsitting)

and

4b
You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid;

So it looks like you are required to use the first class accommodation if it's available (even to the extent of standing in that part of the train if full when there are standard seats??) and failure to do so isn't just a misdemeanour, but leaves you liable for a penalty fare in those areas.   The wording in three separate places is consistent in pointing to this and it does NOT say "you must have a ticket for at least a class as high as you are travelling in" in any of the places.

I have to say I don't think you would have a problem, although staff may check that you understood that you were using a lesser service that ticketed for, and perhaps even  wonder if you were pulling some sort of scam / fraud by downgrading.   I can't myself spot any obvious way of making illicit gain by sitting in a standard seat on a first ticket, but there are some bright people out there who find all sorts of odd loopholes.

[Phil]

I've actually done this a few times in the past, and never once has a train manager said a word.

My reason for doing so in each case was simply that my employer provided 1st class travel for staff above a certain grade, which I was entitled to; however I was travelling with one or more of my own team, who weren't entitled, and there was no way I was going to travel in the front of the train separate from them.

[didcotdean]

I don't see a problem in taking a four year old in first class. You have valid tickets and it is public transport.

[Rhydgaled]

4b
You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid;

The question there is whether a First class ticket is valid for both classes. The rest of you post does suggest that it might only be valid in First, if so I'm supprised. After all, a First class ticket is valid on services that don't have First class accomadation at all.

[brompton rail]

Although the question posed is about using a First Class ticket in standard, the questioner also mentions travelling with a four year old child. Although I cannot find a definition of children's fares, a chance encounter with a Rail Rover page stated that children aged between five and sixteen travel for half price.

Therefore no ticket (first or standard) is required for a four year old.
I am sure she would be well behaved, possibly more so than some adults!
Hope this helps.

Whenever I have travelled in Standard with First ticket I have never encountered any issue, save for staff telling me that there is First Class accommodation available if I wanted to use it.

[FremlinsMan]

I've actually done this a few times in the past, and never once has a train manager said a word.

My reason for doing so in each case was simply that my employer provided 1st class travel for staff above a certain grade, which I was entitled to; however I was travelling with one or more of my own team, who weren't entitled, and there was no way I was going to travel in the front of the train separate from them.

I used to do this in the when my employer allowed me first class travel - more DBs^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) in standard.

[JayMac]

DBs^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about)?

[TaplowGreen]

DBs^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about)?

Double beds