More Choice in Seat Reservations?

[whole diary]

[trainer]

This morning (20/08/2014) on the Radio 4 Today programme, Evan Davis delivered a personal piece about his frustration with train seat reservation.  He believes they're a waste of time because often people with a reservation don't travel on that train, or find a better seat, leaving a sea of cards or scrolling blue 'Reserved' LEDs above empty seats. He thought that most trains were only very busy for short sections of the journey.

He used as his example a Euston - Manchester Piccadilly Virgin service and it was the reply to Davis that made me sit up.  The spokes person for Virgin said that many pax like reservations as it gives peace of mind (agreed  by me...no surprise).  However, when asked about people not sitting where they had been allotted (perhaps the forward/backward facing issue again) the answer he says is not removing reservations but getting a system that allows for more specific details of a seat (his examples 'aisle' 'airline' etc. 

My surprise was two-fold: a) I thought those example options were already available; b) that someone might actually be working on something which lets intending pax know exactly where a seat is and gives them more choice.

That this prestigious news programme should fill time with this subject reminds me that it is still August.

[didcotdean]

I think it is a combination of not liking the particular seat (which could be solved by better IT) and not liking the person who is already sat in the adjacent or opposite seat (not going to be solved).

[mjones]

Other reasons why someone might not sit in their reserved seat:

- unsure where it is, especially with a long train, so if there's an empty seat in front of them they'll use it
- difficulty fighting through lots of people on crowded trains, so again they'll use the first empty seat they find (especially when with lots of luggage)
- they want to sit nearer their luggage in the rack
- got something from buffet and don't want to walk all the way back to their reserved seat
- they want to sit at a particular end of the train because it is nearer the exit at their destination

Basically, unless you can steer passengers with reservations to board the right carriage in the first place an awful lot of them will sit wherever they first find an empty space, unless their ticket type requires them to find their reserved seat.

[bobm]

I don't know if it is official policy but I have noticed an increasing number of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) train managers removing reservations from seats if they are not occupied after their booked station.

[didcotdean]

There is also the converse behaviour of people occupying seats that are going to be reserved later, ignoring the labels. I have to ask people to vacate my reserved seat on about four trains out of five. Sometimes it takes some very assertive behaviour to achieve this - my current record is asking someone four times before he shifted himself, and it wasn't as though there weren't other available seats nearby either.

[PhilWakely]

During the first few months of 2008, I was making three return trips per week from Exeter to Paddington to visit my daughter in St Marys Hospital (and later at the National Hospital, Queens Square). Naturally, I made sure I had reservations for each journey. Usually, I found and sat in the allocated seat, but on a few of occasions, in relatively empty trains, I sat elsewhere. Twice, however, the TM^‡(resolve) requested that I occupy the allocated seat otherwise he'd charge me an excess (once when I was the only person in the carriage!) - which I thought was a little odd, but being a little naive at the time and having other things on my mind, I just did as I was told.

[Timmer]

Twice, however, the TM^‡(resolve) requested that I occupy the allocated seat otherwise he'd charge me an excess (once when I was the only person in the carriage!) - which I thought was a little odd.

Very odd indeed. You must have been very unfortunate to come across the very few TMs who do actually enforce that. I was travelling on the Highland Chieftain service from Inverness to London a few months back and the TM requested that due to the high level of passengers booked on this service that if passengers could please sit in their reserved seats which I think is a very reasonable request on a service which is almost always very busy year round.

[bobm]

I had the opposite of that on a Virgin service recently where the TM^‡(resolve) requested people with reserved seats to sit in their booked seats even though the electronic reservation screens were blank.  You can imagine the chaos that caused!

[ellendune]

There is also the converse behaviour of people occupying seats that are going to be reserved later, ignoring the labels. I have to ask people to vacate my reserved seat on about four trains out of five. Sometimes it takes some very assertive behaviour to achieve this - my current record is asking someone four times before he shifted himself, and it wasn't as though there weren't other available seats nearby either.

I will frequently occupy an untaken reserved seat especially on afternoon services out of London.  If requested, or even if I just sense that the rightful owner is looking for the seat, I will give it up (politely).  This may seem wrong, but if no one does it we all stand while there are a large number of empty reserved seats. On afternoon services out of Paddington I seldom get asked to vacate my seat. I estimate on some services as many as half the seats are reserved and not used by those that reserved them.

[trainer]

I don't know if it is official policy but I have noticed an increasing number of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) train managers removing reservations from seats if they are not occupied after their booked station.

It has certainly been policy on DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) trains in Germany for as long as I can remember that within a short time of leaving stations, all paper reservation notices on seat are removed whether the seat is occupied or not.  In recent days, the electronic signs also ceased showing reservations after a time when a station had been passed.  This can be a nuisance when travelling alone and wanting to visit the buffet or use other facilities.

[didcotdean]

I will frequently occupy an untaken reserved seat especially on afternoon services out of London.  If requested, or even if I just sense that the rightful owner is looking for the seat, I will give it up (politely).  This may seem wrong, but if no one does it we all stand while there are a large number of empty reserved seats. On afternoon services out of Paddington I seldom get asked to vacate my seat. I estimate on some services as many as half the seats are reserved and not used by those that reserved them.

There is a question about the balance of reservable and non reservable seats. However, the problem I have is with people who think because they got on earlier on the journey and are already seated this somehow trumps my reservation because the train is crowded and they don't now have an alternative.

Those who have hoped I won't turn up and move on immediately don't bother me. In return I always travel in my reserved seat unless the train is substantially delayed.

[thetrout]

However, the problem I have is with people who think because they got on earlier on the journey and are already seated this somehow trumps my reservation

That is a reasonable point, but one with which I have slight issue. If the reservation flags are not displayed when boarding a train. (As bobm says with his VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) Experience) Then it's understandable for someone to object to moving as they weren't to know any different. This is especially true if said person has already moved 2 or 3 times.

Also it can depend on the set and type of train that turns up. For example you have a seat reservation on a CrossCountry Voyager and one of 5 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets arrives. The seat numbers don't tally up correctly and it causes all kinds of bother.

I should also say the "little old ladies" who seem to think young people should only be seen and not heard. Try asking one of those for your reserved seat in First Class whilst wearing a hoodie and jogging trousers! (It makes no difference how polite and nicely you ask either!)

[grahame]

That is a reasonable point, but one with which I have slight issue. If the reservation flags are not displayed when boarding a train. (As bobm says with his VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) Experience) Then it's understandable for someone to object to moving as they weren't to know any different. This is especially true if said person has already moved 2 or 3 times.

If "flags" aren't displayed on boarding - not even a "this seat may be reserved later in the journey", and the train has become full and standing, then the person asked to move (i.e. that you are asking to stand) has, I believe, every right to fell pretty miffed - not with you, but with the system.   

I had always understood that seats should be marked prior to any passengers joining the train, and that if reservations are not "put out" by this point they're void for the journey, but I have seen several incidents at starting points where this hasn't happened  - i.e. boarding, getting seated, then (perhaps just a few minutes later, but those seated won't notice) the electronic systems updated.

[didcotdean]

When the reservations aren't designated at the seat then there are no reservations in force - take it up with the train operator later. With the electronic systems they may come up later though although I don't recall anyone coming through the carriages part journey with bits of paper ...

This lack of reservations almost always of course always happens in major delay situations when the trains are turned around quickly - and are going to be crowded.

[ChrisB]

If reservation flags are not displayed, I'm afraid I wouldn't move, if the train is busy. How is one to know its a reserved seat? Sorry, problem for the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) as I sat in my seat in good faith.

Only had this problem once, and on explaining this to staff, the reservee was moved to 1st class with an apology