Another railcard question / morning travel into the London / South East area

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I'm looking to sort out a validity issue on senior railcards.

Background data

From: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr7bb7e80a040002001b255638df2424.aspx

Please visit the Senior Railcard website for more information or click here to buy now.

Which tells us:
From:http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/eligibility-benefits/tickets-travel-times/

A Railcard will give you 1/3 off the price of the following ticket types:

Standard and First Class Anytime and Anytime Day Singles and Returns
Standard and First Class Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns
Standard and First Class Super Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns
Standard and First Class Advance*
Most Rail Rovers
Gatwick Express, Stansted Express, Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect services
Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Off-Peak pay as you go Daily Price Cap and Off-Peak pay as you go single fares for journeys on National Rail, London Underground and Docklands Light Railway. Find out more about Railcard discounts with Oyster
Off-Peak Day Travelcard Zones 1-6 (subject to a minimum fare of ^5.90)
Some ticket types offered by individual train companies. Please enquire locally for details
Anytime Day Travelcard Zones 1-6 when bought as part of ticket to London from outside London (Subject to minimum fare of ^17.00)
Through tickets for travel on the Railair link between Reading and Heathrow Airport
PLUSBUS - unlimited bus travel at your origin / destination station on participating operators. Visit www.plusbus.info or your local staffed station for further details
Some rail/sea journeys with Wightlink, Red Funnel Ferries and Stena Line
* These tickets need to be booked before you travel.

Time restrictions
The Railcard discount isn^t available on tickets for travel during the morning rush hour (peak time), Monday to Friday (excluding Public Holidays) for journeys made wholly within the London and South East area. The times of morning off-peak services do vary by route and are normally related to the availability of Off-Peak Day tickets. It's best to check with ticket office staff before buying your tickets.

The journey to be made is a day return trip at peak times, Melksham to London.   Traveller happy to be resticted to trains that stop at Didcot.

1. Walk up fare - 157.00 return - OK
2. that discounts to 104.70 - OK as the journey is not wholly within the London and South East Zone
3. Anytime single, Melksham to Didcot.  Anytime day return Didcot to Paddington. Off peak single Didcot to Melksham, total 95.80 - OK
4. that discounts to 63.90 - OK as the journey being made isn't wholly within the London and South East area.  (one of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole).

Where the senior discount might not apply is if a break of journey was made in the morning at Didcot, and it could then be argued that it was two separate journeys.

Have I read this right?

[JayMac]

"One of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole"

Is the sort of interpretation of the terms & conditions that I'd take as it is more favourable to the passenger. I doubt very much though that it is the interpretation that the Train Operating Companies intended. Have the arguments well rehearsed and be prepared for an MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) or TIR^▸ (Travel Irregularity Report) should a RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) be encountered.

Also, what time is the return journey from Paddington? if it's outside the peak or not on one of the barred trains then it'll be cheaper again to buy an Anytime Day Single Didcot-London Terminals and and Off Peak Day Single London Terminals-Didcot. Finally, the last ticket Didcot-Melksham need only be a Super Off Peak Single.

[TaplowGreen]

..........I've only just got up off the floor......^157 for a day return from Melksham to London?.....Really? That's astronomical! It's not even a direct service! 

[grahame]

..........I've only just got up off the floor......^157 for a day return from Melksham to London?.....Really? That's astronomical! It's not even a direct service! 

Technically, it's a period return not a day return as there are no day returns.   That's one on the reasons that splitting into two day return sections is so cost effective.

[ChrisB]

"One of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole"

Is the sort of interpretation of the terms & conditions that I'd take as it is more favourable to the passenger. I doubt very much though that it is the interpretation that the Train Operating Companies intended. Have the arguments well rehearsed and be prepared for an MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) or TIR^▸ (Travel Irregularity Report) should a RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) be encountered.

Agreed. That interpretation is likely to be tested at court, so be prepared. And no, you won't win your legal fees if you win....well, unlikely

[grahame]

"One of the tickets might be, but the condition applies to the journey as a whole"

Is the sort of interpretation of the terms & conditions that I'd take as it is more favourable to the passenger. I doubt very much though that it is the interpretation that the Train Operating Companies intended. Have the arguments well rehearsed and be prepared for an MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) or TIR^▸ (Travel Irregularity Report) should a RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) be encountered.

Agreed. That interpretation is likely to be tested at court, so be prepared. And no, you won't win your legal fees if you win....well, unlikely

Well - it very clearly used the word JOURNEY not TICKET, so it's pretty clear to me that multiple tickets one of which happens to be wholly within London and the South East are all valid for the discount as that's worked out by journey. 

However ... you two learned and experienced gentlemen are both suggesting that the rules may be seen differently by rail staff met along the way, to the extent that they could get rather nasty about it ... so I'm not going to suggest to anyone that he / she looks to travel this way, even though I believe that the rules as written (even if not as intended) allow it, and even though a fee has already been paid up front in order to obtain a discount at the time of purchasing individual tickets.

Also, what time is the return journey from Paddington? if it's outside the peak or not on one of the barred trains then it'll be cheaper again to buy an Anytime Day Single Didcot-London Terminals and and Off Peak Day Single London Terminals-Didcot. Finally, the last ticket Didcot-Melksham need only be a Super Off Peak Single.

Yes, noted the "super off-peak" ... my error.   Plan was not to get into the complexity off peak day singles and where they are and aren't valid out from Paddington.

[JayMac]

I'd contend that it's unlikely such a disagreement on a contractual term is would ever see the inside of a court. A ruling on the interpretation of the terms and conditions could be unfavourable to the Train Operating Companies. Not something for which they'd want a precedent set, or a persuasive argument made.

Doesn't stop life being made difficult by rail staff at the time of the journey, or a train company after the fact if they instigate an investigation.

[ChrisB]

ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) would just reissue the T&Cs....I still think you would likely be bringing yourself a whole load of aggro trying that on.....

[grahame]

I'm not in the game of "trying anything on" ... rather looking to understand the rules, which at times I find complex and confusing. 

I have received two fairly strong messages that suggest that whilst my reading might be correct, it may not be what's intended by the condition.  Thanks for letting me know that to test it might cause a degree of aggro; I'm not going to walk into such a situation or recommend that anyone else does.  It's a pragmatic approach - better things to do ...

[ChrisB]

I realise *you* probably aren't - but a lot of others read this & it's sensible to warn them off too. They might be less 'in-the-know' about rail that some of us

[eightf48544]

Whilst I agree it's probably not wise to try an test ambiguos T&Cs for rail travel, I wonder how many people are put off rail travel by these ambiguities.

They are constantly reading of passengers being "fined" for getting on the wrong train or breaking a journey on teh wrong type of ticket etc. etc.

It's just one more example of how absurb the curent fare structure and it's associated T&Cs have become.

I remember hearing or reading (bignsoemac?) a few years ago that were over 4000 individual restrictions on which ticket you can use on which train in the then current. I wonder what  that figure is today?

Also peak restrictions are a mess one I recall was Aberdeen which seemed  to a half hour peak at around 17:00 which as far as I can see covered one train!

Oh for a Minister of Transport who has the courage to tell aTOC to sort it out! I'd give them 3 months if they don't come up with the goods, impose  an overall compulsary 10% discount on  every ticket purchased. That should concentrate minds!

[ChrisB]

An email to ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) pointing out the anomaly may well work too

[SDS]

An email to ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) pointing out the anomaly may well work too

Doubt it. ATOC would send the equivalent of a "Mind your own, we know what were doing" Email. We all know ATOC dislike dealing with passengers at the best of time.

[ChrisB]

you'd be surprised....I know just the person

[grahame]

I remember hearing or reading (bignsoemac?) a few years ago that were over 4000 individual restrictions on which ticket you can use on which train in the then current. I wonder what  that figure is today?

Also peak restrictions are a mess one I recall was Aberdeen which seemed  to a half hour peak at around 17:00 which as far as I can see covered one train!

It's wonderful what you can find - err - published online.    This from the CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) restrictions on a Paddington to Didcot ticket.   Looks like a painful and complicated way of allowing all trains except the ones at certain specific times.

UNPUBLISHED RESTRICTIONS
Intended for use by computerised journey planners and online booking systems.
To determine whether a journey is permitted, the time restrictions shown below are applied to:
The origin and destination of the journey
All locations where a passenger changes trains during a journey
The final destination of all trains travelled on during a journey
(whether or not the passenger is travelling to that final destination)
Note that these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and
resuming a journey at an intermediate station.

Restriction Code: J9
OFF PEAK DAY FOR GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)
 
This restriction code does not apply on the following dates/days:
From   Until   Eased on these days:
Sun 18 May 2014   Sun 25 May 2014   Su                Sa   
Mon 26 May 2014   Sun 1 Jun 2014   Su Mo             Sa   
Mon 2 Jun 2014   Sun 24 Aug 2014   Su                Sa   
Mon 25 Aug 2014   Sun 31 Aug 2014   Su Mo             Sa   
Mon 1 Sep 2014   Sat 6 Sep 2014   Su                Sa   
 
Outward Journey
Summary:   NOT VALID BEFORE 0920 MON-FRI

Time Restrictions
Restriction(s) below apply every day
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   0230^0919   on any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1600^1601   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1606^1607   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1615^1616   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1630^1631   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1633^1637   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1645^1646   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1649^1650   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1700^1701   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1703^1704   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1715^1716   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1722^1723   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1730^1731   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1733^1734   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1742^1743   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1745^1746   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1749^1750   on any TOC
Note - this carries on and so the list above is not complete restriction list!