Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

Something I didn't initally mention in my previous post. But I decided after the strong supporting evidence that I would take a shot at FGWs^▸ (First Great Western) Facebook Page and have a minor rant about further issues on the validity of my ticket.

Annoying it happened twice in one day. Anyway here is the post copy and pasted from their page:

thetrout post on FGW Facebook Page

Hello FGW.
Was a little disappointed with my experience using FGW yesterday. I was going to catch the 15:06 London Paddington - Penzance train to Westbury (1C86) and found the set had a Micro Buffet. So once again the Travelling Chef order of the day was a cancellation of the hot buffet service.

This is happened to me so many times, that I get let down more often than not. You're in discussions over the future of the Travelling Chef service. But if you constantly fail to provide it. Then of course customers are going to seek other choices, because they lose faith in the existing service. Such a shame really. The food is always of excellent quality and for a Railway price, not too unreasonable either. Again, it is a shame and particularly sour tasting when I make effort to seek the trains that offer this service.

Also one of your colleagues at London Paddington seemed to take displeasure in my disagreement with the validity of a First Class Off Peak Return. Ironically having had an earlier problem regarding validity on a GreaterAnglia service, I was beginning to wonder if the railway was secretly mocking me.

So I decided that because the Travelling Chef was not on the 15:06, I would sit in the First Class Lounge and catch the 15:30 instead. This presented me an issue trying to exit the barrier again. I explained to your colleague I had changed my mind on travel time and then had a disagreement over the validity of my ticket. Your Colleague (who I won't name in the public domain) said that Off Peak Tickets are NOT valid at all after 16:30. A Frome - Southend Victoria FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) has restriction code LC^▸ (Level Crossing). So the correct time in this case is 16:40 and NOT 16:30.

He also failed to accept that you can excess the return portion to an Anytime Priced Fare before travel OR onboard the train without penalty if I wished. That is also clearly defined in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Finally, your colleague also seemed to be rather flippant about the ticket being valid again from 18:31.

They might have thought I was being clever. However they were not to know I might have had a diary change and was going to catch the 21:45... Saying the ticket is NOT VALID AFTER 16:30 is not acceptable as this is just not the case.

I don't expect staff to know every single restriction code in the books. Hell even I struggle to understand some of them. It's clear the staff do too. I don't mind explaining the codes etc. But there are ways and means of doing it.

I really don't want to have a go or a rant, considering there are aspects of the journeys and your colleagues I am very supportive and enjoy.

I just get very frustrated when I am given conflicting information. So, sorry for having a go. But really? The pedantic bottom line is, a travelling chef was sorely missed and there were another 10 minutes my ticket were still valid.

Perhaps I should try the 16:36 next time?!

Warm Regards,

thetrout

[John R]

Just one question, your post talks about catching the 1530, but then refers to 1630 and 1640. I can't work out the relevance of the 10 minute difference 1 hour later?

[thetrout]

Sorry I didn't make that very clear and just realised it is slightly ominous...

The Gateline Staff Member said at first I couldn't use it on the 15:30, then realised he'd got it wrong and meant 16:30. It struck a cord however as the 16:36 connects at Westbury and having checked the journey planner, it does advertise this as valid. Either way, he was wrong with both 15:30 and 16:30.

So correlation between 15:06, 15:30, 16:30, 16:36, 16:40 and 18:31 is as follows:

15:06 = Penzance Train which I initially boarded, then alighted due to no travelling chef.
15:30 = Train I caught to Bath Spa
16:30 = Time I was told that travel must start by, also another Bath Spa train
16:36 = Westbury Train with an advertised Frome connection
16:40 = Time where trains are classed as Anytime/Peak Trains by restriction code LC^▸ (Level Crossing)
18:31 = Time Off Peak Tickets become valid again until close of service

Does that make better sense?

[John R]

I think so. Out of interest, how does one find out which restriction code is valid for a given ticket?

[SDS]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/lc 

John R

If you know the restriction code for the ticket you can find it on national rail at the National Rail website now. Just replace the lc shown above with the restriction code. These tend to be printed on the tickets on new upgraded TiS.

[LiskeardRich]

I think so. Out of interest, how does one find out which restriction code is valid for a given ticket?

I always check on brfares as it gives a more plain English explanation.

[SDS]

I think so. Out of interest, how does one find out which restriction code is valid for a given ticket?

I always check on brfares as it gives a more plain English explanation.

Thats only the same information as it written in the fares manual or on Advantix Traveller CD^▸ (Capital Delivery) ROMS.

The new NR^» (Network Rail - home page) pages seem to have it well laid out the example as www.nationalrail.co.uk/lc

[Chris from Nailsea]

Sorry I didn't make that very clear and just realised it is slightly ominous ... Does that make better sense?

Erm ... No.

I assume you meant ambiguous, rather than ominous?

[TeaStew]

Very sorry to drag this back round again but NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) condition 12 goes on to say

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is
not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the
cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle
will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in
designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare.

Which concurs with what has been said above until that last sentence which seems to say Penalty Fare areas are a law unto themselves. Am I missing something? Just want to make sure I haven't got a different end of the stick. 

[thetrout]

Very sorry to drag this back round again but NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) condition 12 goes on to say

<snip>

Which concurs with what has been said above until that last sentence which seems to say Penalty Fare areas are a law unto themselves. Am I missing something? Just want to make sure I haven't got a different end of the stick. 

Don't apologise at all, that is a very interesting point. And something I don't know the answer to. It looks like we now have a horrible contradiction of various rules. However I understand that the Penalty Fare Rules that BNM referred to override this.

Anyhow I have an awful feeling that Jess does not like me...

Hi thetrout,

First off, I would like to apologise for the lack of Travelling Chef on board the 15.06 service yesterday. This is because the train that had the facilities on board was delayed by hitting a bird. We need to make sure that no damage has been done to the train, so it was just under half an hour late getting into Paddington. This would have meant your service would have been delayed if we had waited for the availability of the Travelling Chef. Therefore, the decision was made to run the train without it, and avoid any more disruption.

You are correct in saying the the restriction code LC^▸ (Level Crossing) is valid up until 16.40. However, as you said, there are a large amount of restriction codes in use. A general rule of thumb at Paddington is any train after 16.30. Sometimes there just wouldn't be time for gateline staff to double check all restrictions. They will be happy to point you in the right direction, or advise when tickets would be valid again though.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage do state that you can excess a ticket on board, but this is only if you are travelling from a station that is not in a designated Penalty Fares area. As Paddington is, you would be able to excess a ticket at the ticket office, but not from any train leaving this station. Otherwise, you are liable to pay a Penalty Fare. This is stated in Part I, B, 12, (a).

I hope this has answered your questions. Let me know if you need any further clarification though.

Jess

Looks like we could have incorrect information again... </Tongue in cheek=Or Jess likes to play games with me and keep me on my toes>

I have posted a lengthy response. I was also discussing this with an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Station Manager earlier today and they suggested a few things to add/ask. They said they'd be interested in the response, so please forgive me if the post seems a little blunt or unfair. I have tried to word it however in a nice and constructive way.

Thanks for your response Jess. It does answer the TC^‡(resolve) issue.

However I do have issue with a couple of things and require clarification if you don't mind...

The NRCoC Section 1, B, 12a was the very clause to which I was referring. However it states nothing of the sort in terms of what you have mentioned surrounding Penalty Fares. This is the exact "Copy Paste" wording is as follows:

"you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)"

Which makes no reference to Condition 4 regarding Penalty Fares in the NRCoC. Infact, the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 make this statement in Clause 7.6 which says the complete opposite:

"An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."

Now I'm not sure about you, but that is abundantly clear to me what that means in terms of a rule. Using this logic I could have boarded the 17:00 (For sake of argument) and paid the Train Manager the Excess to travel on that train.

In the case point however using the "rule of thumb" that has given me concerns. There is a 16:36 which connects at Westbury for Frome, on which the Journey Planner clearly shows the return portion of an FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) from SOV - FRO^» (Frome - next trains) being valid. Infact the journey planner lists one journey where this is not the case (The 18:06 PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - FRO direct).

However if your staff are using a speculative 16:30 blanket rule. If your colleagues, as your suggested "Do not have enough time to check restrictions" then your colleagues MUST give the customer the benefit of the doubt. Because I "Do not have enough time and energy to argue" It can work both ways that one :\

In my case point, your colleague DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) NOT advise when the ticket would be valid, he just said travel by 16:30 or new ticket. That is very different from advice being given to when validity resumes or the possibility of excess.

I am understanding and sympathetic towards staff, but there is a limit to some of these things, but I am slowly seeing my confidence and patience tested. One your colleagues who had only started the job at Paddington the same day asked me what the code DSB meant on my ticket!! :O

That is a basic Railcard code, I would expect even the newest staff member to know that one! I was happy to explain this and we had a pleasant, brief, discussion. But if I am getting a question like that, then from my point of view it doesn't look very good...

FGW have been pushing the 'campaign' to their staff of "Putting the customer first" So far, my version is this:

Putting the customer into an argument over ticket validity causing them to potentially miss a train that is valid
Putting the customer into a state of anxiety for implying wrong doing and that they would be charged a Penalty Fare when the rules state the opposite
Putting the customer into an unnecessary and forced 3+ hour delay because staff refused benefit of the doubt so now they now catch the 19:45.

So to me if that is the description of putting the customer first, something is VERY wrong indeed. Because from the case point it's clear that it's putting the customer into a risky debate and disagreement when they have deliberately taken time to understand and play by the rules.

I'm sorry I've been quite blunt, perhaps borderline rude here. Please do not take anything personally and I was not intending to be rude in explaining my point of view. But I really do get frustrated when I receive information I know to be factually incorrect and I don't take injustice very well. I have the upmost respect for your colleagues working with a system that is less than ideal. If I am incorrect then please suggest where the correct information lies and I will happily retract my suggestions and apologise.

Jess, Thanks again for your response and sorry to put you in a difficult position here.

Warm Regards,

thetrout

We have gone way off topic, so if the admin team want to break my stuff into a new thread I am happy with that. My fault but my post was relevant to the original post and has since escalated... Sorry, always doing that

Sorry I didn't make that very clear and just realised it is slightly ominous ... Does that make better sense?

Erm ... No.

I assume you meant ambiguous, rather than ominous?

Yes I did, thanks I won't amend it though as you've called me out already... No splat smiley though!!

[SDS]

Interesting tht FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are playing the you can be PFd on a restricted ticket.

I have always been told you cannot PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) anyone holding a restricted ticket. (Advances on wrong train yes, but that's a different subject). You can however issue a TIR^▸ (Travel Irregularity Report) or MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) if you believe there's intent to avoid but this would go to prosecutions to make a decision, and most likely they wouldn't pursue it.

It seems that yet again another court ruling is needed in regards to all these contradictory rules and regulations. However wouldn't CPFUTCA apply here??

[LiskeardRich]

Coming back to my original post, cross country have sent me the following reply:

Dear Mr Warwicker

Thank you for your email, received here on 2 August 2014.

I can confirm that your understanding of the Cornwall and Devon Railcard is correct.  It is only valid for use on services after 09:00.

I have arranged for our on-board staff to be briefed regarding this as other passengers should not be allowed to use the railcard if they are boarding at the same station as you.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us, if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

I also received an automated acknowledgement and a personalised mail within 24 hours stating they'd referred it to the relevant department.

I put the same email query to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and they haven't had the decency to reply yet, or even acknowledge beyond the automated 5 day response time email. They are now on day 6!

Interesting to compare two different TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) customer service for the same query.

[thetrout]

And I am guilty as charged... Until proven innocent it seems...

Hi thetrout,

Thanks for your reply, and for your further points, which I trust I can answer for you.

In the relevant section of the Conditions of Carriage, there is a further paragraph that states -

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare.

The last sentence does say a Penalty Fare will be given if you don't excess your ticket if you are in a designated Penalty Fares area.

If you believe that you are right, then of course we will check your ticket validity. Gateline staff may not be able to do this immediately if they have other duties to attend to, but will either point you in the direction of someone who can confirm this, or will ask another staff member to assist. However, we are unable to give customer's the benefit of the doubt. If the customer is incorrect, then they could get a Penalty Fare and it would be the staff member that would be liable for giving incorrect information. We cannot allow passengers to travel unless we are 100% sure that the ticket is correct.

With regards to the new staff member, if it was their first day, then they wouldn't have had any previous training about tickets, etc. Advice and information is given out as they go along. There would have been a staff member close by to assist with this though, if help was needed. We do make sure all staff are fully trained before leaving them alone to do their jobs, and we make sure they have the necessary knowledge to perform their duties. Until this time, they would be supervised.

I hope this has answered your questions.

Jess

I am now severely irritated with FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s response.

Lets pick it apart and make real mountains and some mole hills for good measure

where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare. <snip> The last sentence does say a Penalty Fare will be given

no no NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My understanding is "WILL be given" is extremely different to "MAY be given"

As a side matter, I do some volunteering in the Youth Centre and have helped some Young People with financial matters. A debt collection agency saying "We MAY take (il)legal action if you don't pay up" (A speculative phishing letter) is completely different from saying "We WILL take court action if you don't pay up" (A Letter Before Action or LBA for short)

We cannot allow passengers to travel unless we are 100% sure that the ticket is correct.

Well this one made me laugh. Guilty until proven innocent. That stinks. It seriously stinks to be honest... I have yet to calm down... Not the first time Jess has told me this one too... London Underground Delays anyone?? No. Need more mole hills

If the customer is incorrect, then they could get a Penalty Fare and it would be the staff member that would be liable for giving incorrect information.

So what is the point of the Penalty Fares Rules of 2002? That leads me to believe SDS has shot the gun in the right direction on CPFUTCA

SDS I agree on your point R.E: CPFUTCA... FGW appear to be picking the rules that suit them. Very dubious... If I find myself with a Penalty Fare I will take it to court as I believe there to be a wider public interest for what is a fundamentally basic issue.

I am happy to play by the rules. But the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) need to play fair and stop cheating.

WTF have I started...?!

Big enough mountains?

I put the same email query to FGW and they haven't had the decency to reply yet, or even acknowledge beyond the automated 5 day response time email. They are now on day 6!

I too am waiting on a reply regarding my time before last, dire trip to Southend Victoria.

Interesting to compare two different TOCs customer service for the same query.

Lets compare three... c2c... Sent an email querying a ticket issue from Chalkwell. Typed it on my laptop when I boarded the train. By the time the train got to London Fenchurch Street I had an answer to my email which was well beyond satisfactory! Oh and a ^10 RTV too

Edit to change your name to your forum name as you left your real name in there - you must have been steaming 

[JayMac]

Coming back to my original post, cross country have sent me the following reply:

Dear Mr Warwicker

Thank you for your email, received here on 2 August 2014.

I can confirm that your understanding of the Cornwall and Devon Railcard is correct.  It is only valid for use on services after 09:00.

I have arranged for our on-board staff to be briefed regarding this as other passengers should not be allowed to use the railcard if they are boarding at the same station as you.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us, if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

CrossCountry are 100% wrong. I'd chase this up, pointing to National Rail Enquiries, where the T&Cs state it is valid on Off Peak and Off Peak Day tickets with no mention of a blanket 'before 0900' validity. Ignore what they and Truro ticket office are saying and buy your D&C discounted tickets online from FGW^▸ (First Great Western), where the discount is being correctly applied. Also ask them where, in the public domain, this blanket not valid 'before 0900' validity is advertised.

[Chris from Nailsea]

No splat smiley though!!

No: you didn't earn it this time, young trout.