Railcards, pre 9am not treating passengers equally

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

Fun and games were had with Revenue Protection this morning on the train into London Liverpool Street.

I had a First Class Off Peak Return Portion from Southend Victoria - Frome. The ticket has restriction code:

Which is very interesting. The restriction is based on the time you depart London Paddington on the Return Portion. Not the time you arrive in or traverse London on the Underground. So this means it is acceptable to use this ticket on any GreaterAnglia service into London Paddington. Even if they are Peak Time Trains.

I had a tough time explaining that to the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)). This particular RPI was not prepared to accept they were wrong. It was a simple "Your ticket is not valid at this time of day" I explained the restriction was based on the time leaving London Paddington/London Waterloo and not the time arriving into London Liverpool Street.

It was then suggested by the RPI's colleague that a Penalty Fare be issued. Having to resort to bringing up the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) on my phone at 7AM shouldn't be necessary by any means. But it saw the Penalty being written up, torn up, rather quickly indeed.

You CANNOT be issued a Penalty Fare for using an (Super)Off Peak Ticket on an Anytime Ticket ONLY train!

I asked the RPIs then to phone their supervisor for clarification on the restriction. They refused. So I refused to pay the excess unless a second opinion. I made it very clear that if the supervisor was willing to explain why I was wrong then I would happily pay for an FDS SOV - LST and call it a deal down to experience.

The RPI's eventually admitted defeat when I showed them the restriction code from www.brfares.com and I was advised not to attempt the journey in this nature again. Advice which is wrong and I have no intentions of following. This is the same RPI I had an argument with for nearly 30 minutes over the use of a Railcard on a First Class ticket. Apparently you can't do that either in their eyes... I finished the argument with a comment that really was childish but felt necessary at the time through severe frustration "My Railcard is alright on this one isn't it?"

I just received the look...

It is also worth pointing out, that restrictions on the ticket should be explained to the customer at the point of sale. However if the staff member who sold me the ticket doesn't know the restrictions. Then they cannot supply that information. I know for a fact that the Guard who sold me the FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) does not know the restrictions because she said to me "You're the only person I ever sell this one too so it always takes me a while to find it"

That being said. I reasonably don't expect staff to know every single restriction on every ticket. Even us regular forum folk can't get our head around them all.

Finally, It is fair to say that if you supply the TM^‡(resolve) with the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) Destination Codes and Ticket Code. They will assume you know what you're doing and what the rules of the game are...

Just a shame that the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) like to change the rules at times it suits them and/or move the goalposts when they get a telling off in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Courts... St Albans springs to mind

[Brucey]

Finally, It is fair to say that if you supply the TM^‡(resolve) with the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) Destination Codes and Ticket Code. They will assume you know what you're doing and what the rules of the game are...

I always assumed a ticket could be swiped through the card reader on the Avantix (to save finding it in the system) and the restriction text shown on screen.  Is this not the case?

[SDS]

Nope.

From memory when you swipe a ticket on advantix (if the machine actually encoded something useful onto the mag stripe in the first place) it comes up with the to/from, date of expiry, time of issue, a code for the last station used (ie last barrier used). Also how many adults/kids/discount.

If the ticket is interrogated using a proper booking office, you get an A4 printout of everything you ever wanted to know about the ticket. This printout is for internal use only and normally only gets printed when there's a revenue dispute or the tickets already been used through a barrier on a previous day.

Must admit I do like people like you trout, staff can learn more from passengers who study the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) then the training the tocs actually provide.
It has always been the rule you cannot penalty fare based on an advertised restriction or restricted ticket (e.g. off peak in peak) and it would result in an automatic upholding of the appeal a nice ^8 charge to the issuing toc and an automatic bo***king letter to the person who issued it via the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company).


Think im gonna have fun with an easement in a couple of weeks, which is poorly written and saves me almost ^40 on a priv ticket by invoking that easement and the routing guide maps.

However just look at this evil discriminating poster. Men only??? Sheesh.

[grahame]

However just look at this evil discriminating poster. Men only??? Sheesh.

Almost undoubtedly dates from the era when women could draw a pension at 60 but men had to wait until 65 (which was, I suggest, evil and discriminating  ), and was saying that men did not have to wait the extra five years for a senior citizen's railcard.

http://www.web40571.clarahost.co.uk/statepensionage/SPA_history.htm

[chuffed]

Can I use the Railcard in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland?
Railcards can be used for rail discounts in the area known as Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales). They cannot be used for rail travel in either in Northern Ireland nor the Republic of Ireland.

If you live in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland you can buy a Railcard to use for travelling in Scotland, Wales or England. For more information on concessionary rail travel schemes in Northern Ireland please see www.translink.co.uk or the Republic of Ireland please see  www.irishrail.ie.


From the Senior railcard FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions)'s.

Shurely shome discrimination here. If all the Irish are allowed to buy railcards to use in England, Scotland ow Wales, why can't we use ours over there ?

[Brucey]

Shurely shome discrimination here. If all the Irish are allowed to buy railcards to use in England, Scotland ow Wales, why can't we use ours over there ?

They can buy a England, Wales & Scotland railcard which is only valid in England, Wales & Scotland (same as us).  If they want a discount in NI or ROI, they have to purchase whatever the local equivalent product is, like we would have to.

[ChrisB]

ZAnd in any case, an offer is an offer....they can make T&Cs where they want to.

[TeaStew]

You CANNOT be issued a Penalty Fare for using an (Super)Off Peak Ticket on an Anytime Ticket ONLY train!

Apologies if I don't understand the minutiae of this journey and ticket type but I was under the impression that if it is a penalty fare area/station then having an Off Peak ticket on a "peak" train is going to get you a penalty fare. Although what is peak etc is another thing.

Not trying to split hairs, just trying to understand exactly what is being said here. Was that a blanket CANNOT or just for this instance. Sorry!

[ChrisB]

As I understand it, no PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) can be issued if you've paid anything for a fare for the journey. So offpeak instead of peak or buying a 'short' journey means excess or prosecution only, but no PF?

[grahame]

As I understand it, no PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) can be issued if you've paid anything for a fare for the journey. So offpeak instead of peak or buying a 'short' journey means excess or prosecution only, but no PF?

https://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares.shtml

Where penalty fares apply, passengers must buy a ticket before starting their journey wherever there are facilities for them to do so. If a passenger boards a bus or train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities were available, they will be liable to pay a penalty if they meet a ticket inspector appointed as an Authorised Collector.

There's a link to a document library which includes a 32 page (I kid you not) set of detailed rules, but the above is fairly clear - it says "must buy a ticket" and not "must buy the correct ticket".   That sorta makes sense because a penalty fare is a complete ticket, and not an upgrade.    And having a ticket or not is easy for Jo Public to understand ... having a ticket that's correct for the journey being made can baffle the best of us, and even the staff at times ... as witnessed by thetrout's story!

[ChrisB]

Indeed, also the word "without" a ticket is pretty clear too

[JayMac]

From the (Strategic Rail Authority - about)%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Rules%202002.pdf" target="_blank">Penalty Fares Rules:

6 People who may be charged a penalty fare
6.1 Any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if asked by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making.

6.2 If a person fails to produce a valid ticket or other authority in line with rule 6.1, the authorised collector may charge that person a penalty fare, in line with the Regulations and these rules.

<snip>

7 Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged

<snip>

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

The salient points of Condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel

Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:

(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket

So, the correct procedure when travelling on a time restricted (Super Off Peak/Off Peak) walk-up ticket at a time it is not valid is to be excessed up to the walk-up fare valid on the train you are on. A penalty fare should not be charged. If the original ticket is railcard discounted then so should the excess.

[Btline]

What happens if you buy a railcard discounted ticket online for less than ^12, and then use it before 10am.

Will the barrier spit out your ticket? Will a guard charge an excess?

[ChrisB]

Presumably, only if the railcard is valid for the train used....

[JayMac]

What happens if you buy a railcard discounted ticket online for less than ^12, and then use it before 10am.

Will the barrier spit out your ticket? Will a guard charge an excess?

Covered by Condition 12 of the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage). An excess to the correct fare is the correct procedure.