Car Parking - Parking Charge Notices (PCN) - merged topic / ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

And post progress or otherwise here please?

[JayMac]

There's a case being heard in the Supreme Court tomorrow about Private Parking Company issued Parking Charge Notices. It's a long saga and something of a test case with high stakes on either side.

A couple of summaries:

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/parkingeye-vs-beavis/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weY59fUaYRU&feature=youtu.be

Google "Barry Beavis" for further reading.

The YouTube video features two of the tireless campaigners for motorists; the Parking Prankster who blogs on the issues, and Bargepole who has helped motorists with sterling advice on the Pepipoo forum board dedicated to private parking tickets and/or assisted them as a lay representative or 'McKenzie Friend' in numerous cases in lower courts.

I don't expect the Supreme Court to deliver a knockout blow to either side, but I am hopeful that the government will sit up, take notice and legislate further. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 outlawed clamping and towing on private land, but it didn't go far enough in protecting motorists from the chicanery used by Private Parking Companies (many being ex-clampers) to extort money from unwary drivers and vehicle keepers.

Not all in the Private Parking industry are bad, but it is a pond filled with too large a percentage of bottom feeders.

[arrow]

Has anybody had a similar experience -    ' Out of the blue I received a letter from Debt Recovery Plus on behalf of APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) alleging a parking infringement 6 months previous at Bristol Parkway.   Despite me contacting them immediately to inform them I had received no PCN through the post, (Parkway being a pay by phone, ANPR regulated car park), they are insisting that I pay a fine of ^150. They have been asked to provide evidence, to no avail.'

Because it is 6 months later, and you only have 4 weeks to appeal, I cannot supposedly appeal the case with DRP or APCOA and because they will therefore not give me a appeal verification code, I cannot take it to POPLA.

Has anybody else had this and were you able to agree a way forward with APCOA or DRP without going to court. I have spoken to he citizens advice bureau as POPLA suggest but am a little frustrated that APCOA and DRP are not doing anything other than threatening to take me to court.
Any advices gratefully received. 

[JayMac]

Head over to PePiPoo Forums, register, and post a topic there. Far more specialist knowledge about Private Car Park Parking Charge Notices, than we have here.

Before I proceed, I'll stress I am not a lawyer. My knowledge of private parking tickets comes merely from extensive reading on the subject online. Parking Charge Notices (PCN) issued in private car parks are one of the greatest injustices against motorists currently allowed.

What I will say though is this car park is on railway land where railway byelaws almost certainly apply and the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 doesn't. That means only a magistrate can impose any form of financial penalty for an alleged breach of railway byelaws in regard to parking. That doesn't stop APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) trying to claim you owe then a Parking Charge, nor does it stop debt collectors trying to enforce an alleged debt. Their alleged Parking Charge can only be enforced in the County Court as a civil debt.

I fear you may have identified yourself as the driver on the day in question. Only the driver can be liable under Railway Byelaws. APCOA and their debt collectors may try and claim there is Keeper Liability under POFA 2012. That would almost certainly not be the case as the land in question is not relevant land for POFA 2012. If you've not identified yourself as the driver keep it that way. Refer to the driver in the third person in all correspondence, "The driver did this, the driver did that..." etc.

It is unlikely that a Railway Byelaw claim can be made against the driver in the magistrates court in this case as the claimant has to lay particulars within 6 months of any alleged contravention. So that, at least shuts down any criminal sanction. However, that doesn't stop either APCoA or Debt Recovery Plus threatening civil action against the registered keeper in the County Court. Whether those threats are justified when the alleged tort is almost certainly against the land owner (GWR on behalf of Network Rail) is an exercise for those with greater legal knowledge than I. Such people contribute to PePiPoo.

The first thing to do is appeal in writing to the car park operator. A simple "the charge doesn't reflect your losses" appeal will suffice at this point. Appeal in writing regardless of what they say about timescales. Keep copies of emails and, if using the post, obtain a free certificate of posting at a post office for all letters sent. In that appeal you need to state that should your appeal be unsuccessful, or simply not allowed because it has timed out (time limits are totally arbitrary, set by the operator themselves), then you require the dispute to be settled by an Alternative Dispute Resolution body. This could be POPLA or the Consumer Ombudsman if POPLA won't help. This is so you appear reasonable should the matter go as far as a County Court hearing. It won't look good to the judge if the claimant(s) has/have not attempted to resolve the dispute before court.

So, head over to PePiPoo, register and post a topic on their 'Private Parking Tickets & Clamping' board. It'd be helpful if you can include uploads of any correspondence (redacted of personal information) you've received from APCOA and Debt Recovery Plus.

Finally, don't make any more phone calls to APCoA or Debt Recovery Plus. All correspondence should be in writing/email so you can keep records. And best to run all your outgoing correspondence by the folk at PePiPoo before sending it.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/

[JayMac]

Oh, I forgot my manners.

A very warm welcome to the forum, arrow. 

[plymothian]

I had a PCN notice from APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) last January because I transposed 2 digits of my numberplate in the machine for ^150.

The original parking fee as ^5 for 24 hours.

I wrote a letter back to them stating that the vehicle owner was not obliged to identify the driver, the charge of ^150 was not a reflection of any cost lost, and as the vehicle was parked for less than 24 hours, APCOA had in fact gained revenue.

Never heard anything back.

[JayMac]

It's only 15 months later.

APCoA could still try to extort money from you. They have up to 6 years to raise a civil claim in the County Court. Hopefully your PCN really has been cancelled, but don't be surprised if, any time between the date of the alleged contravention and January 2021, you get letters from APCoA and debt recovery firms.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Yes, welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, arrow. 

While he is the first to emphasize that he is not a lawyer, 'bignosemac' does know a lot about the subject: I therefore endorse his advice to discuss your particular case with the 'experts' that other forum. 

[ChrisB]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

A woman has been ordered by a sheriff to pay a private parking company £24,500 in unpaid charges.

Carly Mackie ignored hundreds of penalty notices for parking at Dundee's Waterfront without a permit, claiming they were unenforceable.

Ms Mackie said that she had a right to park in the area as she was living there at the time.

Sheriff George Way said the charges were from a "valid contract" and she was liable for them.

Vehicle Control Services (VCS) took the 28-year-old to court last year after she failed to pay £18,500 in private parking notices.




She had been living at a flat with her stepfather, who was a tenant and had a garage at the property.

Sheriff Way said Ms Mackie had parked outside the garage and would not accept the offer of a parking permit for a space nearby for £40 per month.

'Entirely misdirected'

In a written judgement, Sheriff Way said: "She admits she parked without a permit, on the property that the pursuers were contracted to protect.

"She had no better right or title to do so than any other interloper or stranger no matter what her belief might be."


What does the law say?

Parking tickets issued by private companies in private car parks are not fines, they can be classed as parking charge notices.

This is different from Penalty Charge Notices which are issued by council traffic wardens and the police. These are regulated fines, backed by legislation.

Private landowners and car parking firms do not have the power to issue Penalty Charge Notices

However, by parking in a restricted private area, a motorist can be considered to be agreeing to a contract with the landowner or car park operator, provided there is adequate signage warning of the charge.

Failing to pay can be seen as a breach of contract and the car parking firm can take the motorist to court to recover their losses.


The sheriff said Ms Mackie had "entirely misdirected herself" on both the law and "the contractual chain" in the case.

He said: "The defender is bound by that contract and incurred the parking charge on each occasion.

"The defender refused to pay the parking charges not because she was unaware of the parking scheme or the terms of the notices or the financial consequences of parking at any time, but because she did not believe that the charges were valid in law.

"The parking charges flow from a valid contract between the pursuers and the defender and she is liable for them."

Whether the same applies in English law, I don't know - but it seems PCNs can be enforced at court. So don't ignore them if you get one.

[chrisr_75]

but it seems PCNs can be enforced at court

I believe this has been the case for some time following some recent test cases

[LiskeardRich]

The law changed in 2012 allowing the registered driver to be taken through the court to claim owed money.
Prior to 2012 the private companies had to prove who the driver was, so ignoring was a safe option then.
The law change was the same one that banned clamping.

[JayMac]

Those 2012 law changes (Protection of Freedoms Act) do not apply in this case. This is Scotland.

Wherever you are in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) though you shouldn't ignore a Parking Charge Notice. There are plenty of ways to defend them and beat the bottom feeding parasites like VCS.

My personal opinion on this one is that it is a perverse judgement. If the only land she was blocking was the entrance to her own father's garage then I fail to see how the parking parasites can justify their claim. That said, had she not ignored, and sought advice from one of the many folk online who can beat the parasites, then she may well not be facing a huge bill now. I don't know much about the law in Scotland surrounding this type of contractual dispute, but I hope the judgement is appealable. 

Edit: I've now read the salient points of the judgement and will revise my opinion. This lady did everything wrong from day one. VCS even offered her many outs. Unfortunately she stuck steadfastly to the idea that the tickets and breach of contract were unenforceable. She gave VCS an open goal.

I still think VCS and their ilk are parasites though. This time they found a host to feast on.

[TonyK]

Boy, is her face red! Do we think she will appeal?

[John R]

There was another interesting case recently where a ticket was thrown out when the driver produced evidence from the car's "black box" that proved it had only been parked for 1 minute at the time of the ticket, thus proving the defence that the driver had gone to get a ticket from the machine and when they had returned it had been ticketed. Which up until that point had been hotly disputed by the cowboy operator.

In my mind, in that sort of instance the car parking operator should be done for fraud.

[rower40]

I had a similar problem at a car park on an out-of-town shopping centre last year.  The timeline of events went something like this:
10.05: enter car park at entrance A
10.06: leave car park at entrance B
(go to another shopping complex nearby, then go home a different route)
16.00: enter car park by entrance B
16.02: leave car park by entrance A.
So they slapped a bill for outstaying our welcome in their car park in the post, backed up by photos of our car entering at 1005, and leaving at 1602.  Fortunately our tracker, whose tracks can be made visible on the internet as and when we want, showed that we'd been on their car park for a total of 3 mins.  A semi-apologetic letter came back to say they wouldn't be pursuing this case...