Overnighter ticket - out late one day, back early the next

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Reading the comments above, would I be correct in assuming that I could book a ticket for the previous day (at a cheaper price) and travel at 3am the following day?

That is what you can do. Although in the case of Clapham Junction to Gatwick there are no Single Off Peak Day fares. And if you were to buy the Off Peak Day Return for the journey CLJ-GTW at 0309, dated the previous evening, you'd be unable to use the return portion as there is no service that would get you back to CLJ for 0429.

However, although the railway day ends at 0429, it starts at 0001. You can buy an Off Peak Day Return online for the 0309 from Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport dated for the actual date of outward travel and return on any service, including morning peak services as the return portion is unrestricted, up until the 0305 from GTW the following morning.

[Rhydgaled]

Talk of the railway day finishing at 4 or 4.30am is curious. I have booked tickets on several occasions online for Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport departing around 3-4am and found this is more expensive than during the day. I can appreciate that travelling after 10am or whatever time off peak starts is cheaper, but I can't see why a train in the early hours could possibly be defined as peak. Anti social hours maybe.

I personally think another term is needed to refer to the early hours of the morning (before the morning peak) and late evenings (after the evening peak). The term off-peak currently covers both those anti-social periods and the time during the day between the peaks. The three different periods of 'off-peak' are very different (in my experience at least) in terms of passenger loadings.

[Chris from Nailsea]

However, although the railway day ends at 0429, it starts at 0001.

While I can see the practicality of that particular example, it does perhaps give 'new' or 'occasional' rail travellers the impression that the rules of rail ticketing are based on Mornington Crescent. 

[Brucey]

However, although the railway day ends at 0429, it starts at 0001.

As many will be aware, London Underground's ticket machines are somewhat basic in their setup.  A Travelcard purchased after 00:00 but on or before 04:29 is issued with the previous day's date.  The time on the tickets is the current time plus 24hr (so 01:30 is printed as 25:30).  However the credit card receipts are printed with the real date and time.

I'm not sure (except to take additional money off travellers) why they programmed the machines like this.  Surely it would have made more sense to issue a ticket for the actual day of purchase when the ticket is issued after 00:00.  After all, why would someone opt to buy a ticket that is valid for 4hr 30mins when they can get one for 28hr 30mins for the same price?  And it would've saved some unnecessary programming of these machines to mock the wrong date.

[thetrout]

All incredibly interesting discussions here.

Now lets throw things around slightly.

You are using the return portion of a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')). You board the train at 03:45 and the train arrives at it's destination at 05:01 for arguments sake. I can think of a few very specific examples where this may be the case. (Sleepers is definitely one of them)

So is one to assume that the clause in the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) would allow you to continue to your journey if you were already mid transit? But the validity ended whilst you're inside the actual moving train?

[JayMac]

Is there such a clause in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage? I believe the only time you can continue your journey beyond a ticket's time restrictions or end of validity is when you have been subject to delays.

Otherwise, in the case of the return portion of an Off Peak Day Return (CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))), it's valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day, by which time all travel must be completed.

[Brucey]

There appears to be no exemption for the sleepers either.  What happens at 0429 when your ticket expires, e.g. with a super off peak single printed as "On Date Shown"?

[Southern Stag]

When the railway day finished at 0230 the rule was that you were able to complete any travel started prior to 0230. That changed when the railway day changed to finishing at 0430.

[thetrout]

Is there such a clause in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage? I believe the only time you can continue your journey beyond a ticket's time restrictions or end of validity is when you have been subject to delays.

That's slightly tenuous and I think I misunderstood the clause I was referring to. You are right, there is such a clause for delay but also the following extract is in the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage)

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your
journey if you leave a Train Company^s or Rail Service Company^s stations after you start
your journey other than to:

• join a train at another station, or
• stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day
• follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company^s or Rail Service Company^s staff.

   

My emphasis in bold.

The vague wording doesn't exactly help but my interpretation is of the following:

• Reasonably complete a Journey in 24 hours. Penzance - Thurso being an obvious one. Even with the use of sleepers you may find you take 3 days to complete this one.
• Taking the 21:29 Taunton - London Paddington service and then resuming the journey at around 5AM to Norwich having stopped in a 24 Hour McDonalds / Hotel Somewhere
• Starting a Journey and then finding you have a significant gap between Last and First Service (such as the above) and decide to hold travel until as near as dammit First Service due to basic needs of Sleep etc

Also Accommodation is not defined explicitly as a Hotel. So that could very well be a 24 Hour McDonalds, A relative/friends living space, Your Office or other establishment open 24 hours.

So it all comes down to the wording and how that should be interpreted. For me it is vague enough that it could be exploited in such a way. But I wouldn't want to risk it unless I was mid journey and caught up between Last/First Service.

I'm going to Southend Victoria tonight and have a risky 13 minute connection from Bus to Train. So if I find myself on the 21:29 using this condition at Liverpool Street Gateline I'll let you know how I get on

[thetrout]

So if I find myself on the 21:29 using this condition at Liverpool Street Gateline I'll let you know how I get on

Well I just jinxed that big time... 1A35 Penzance - London Paddington is 1 Hour Late. Having been started from Par 52 minutes late it has only just arrived at Totnes. Currently sat in Coach L of 1A37 knowing it's going to be one of "those" journeys...