Overnighter ticket - out late one day, back early the next

[whole diary]

[grahame]

A question raised with me several times by TransWilts users who work occasional overnight shifts in Swindon.  "Why can't I get a day return ticket when I go up to Swindon on an evening train and come back on the 06:12 - I'm up there for just as long as people who go up on the morning peak train and come back on the 17:36 or 18:50, yet I have to pay more.  And I'm not even travelling on a busy train like they are"

It's a good question - why can't a day return be valid for a day (24 hours) from the time the journey is started?

I notice that First Capital Connect are now starting to provide tickets valid from 2 p.m. one day until noon the next day - see (here).

Can we expect similar tickets across the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) network, and for use each day of the week?

[thetrout]

That's a very interest concept and I too have often wondered why it's not valid for 24 hours. But I guess it is to stop people buying a ticket at say 8AM and returning the following day at 8PM (36 hours)

You're right however that it stinks for those who work the antisocial hours doing work that all the 9-5s take for granted (Cleaners, Depot Staff, Engineers, Medical, Call Centre etc)

The railway clock can be a funny thing. In the past I have come across 2 anomalies from staff members of different TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) who didn't like how I was using a ticket based on the purchase date.

One was an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) TM^‡(resolve) who didn't like me using a Bath Spa - Cardiff Central FDS (First Anytime Day Single) purchased on for arguments sake 07/07/2014 but was travelling on 08/07/2014.

What had actually happened is I had purchased the ticket at 22:30 on the 7th July for travel on the 01:15AM Service on the 8th July... The TM was applying the rule of: "Valid on Date Shown" which was the previous day by the time I was on the train. An argument ensued on the definition of validity with regards to the Railway Clock which finishes at 2AM. The response provided was the train arrived in Cardiff after 2AM so that meant the ticket was valid as far as Newport at a best guess. Looking forward to a disrupted flight to Alicante I recall wondering why he was picking this argument at 01:15AM.

But I pulled up the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) on my mobile and showed the rule that allows customers to complete their journey on trains after the validity of their ticket has ended. Provided that they started making their journey when the ticket was valid... <-- That doesn't make sense does it? I thought not... Doesn't make sense to me either... That would mean you would need to use the first available trains which might actually take LONGER to get to your end destination. Virgin Trains vs. London Midland being a good example.

The other occasion happened when a member of GreaterAnglia staff challenged my use of an Advance Ticket. They were an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)). I had 2 tickets. Frome - Z1256 and Harold Wood - Southend Victoria. I recall it being a Thursday Morning but the previous day I had suffered significant delays on FGW Services into Paddington. I made the mistake of being again fobbed off and sent to Liverpool Street to become their problem. I got to Liverpool Street to find the station closed (Saw that one coming a mile away) and decided to sit in the Little 24 Bar nearby.

Using the "Disrupted, continue journey as soon as possible rule in the NRCoC" I continued on the First Train in the morning to Southend Victoria. RPIs were out in Force and I generated quite the audience. A few thought I was chancing the First Class on a Standard Ticket. After much explaining and quoting the Headcode of the erroneous delayed train and showing it's stats on my phone, they changed their focus to my split tickets.

[Harold Wood I have been told by Ticket Office Staff at Liverpool Street is acceptable to use for a Boundary Zone 6 Fare when travelling to SOV.]

As the Boundary Zones for Southend Victoria do not exist and only go as far as Prittlewell. A rather sneaky Easement allows Doubleback to Harold Wood via Shenfield which is probably what LST Ticket Office staff have clocked on to. Using that I blew the RPIs argument right out the water.

Whilst the above incidents were isolated 'unlucky trout' examples. It just goes to show how complicated things are already. 24 Hour Validity on CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/SDRs I can sadly only see being abused much to the annoyance of those who would greatly benefit. So it seems that the rules are based on the majority of daytime and peak travel and NOT geared towards those who take the antisocial hours work...

It stinks... But then so does charging a First Class Anytime Single on a train when a Standard Class Super Off-Peak Single is also valid...!

[grahame]

When you think further, a monthly return is valid for 30 / 31 days from its start date, when you buy a Manchester tram ticket it's valid for 90 minutes from then you purchase it, and when you buy a parking ticket for an hour it's valid from an hour when you buy it and not to the end of the current hour.

So that day return ticket is the exception to the rule - uniquely it seems that it runs out at the end of the current day, and not a day after it starts.    So let's simplify the system - let's bring the day return ticket into line 

[Rhydgaled]

Why are there even 'Day Return' tickets anyway? Generally, you pay more for flexibility ('advance' vs 'off-peak' vs 'anytime'), and the main difference between a day return and a month return is the latter is flexible on the return date, whereas a day return is only valid on the specified date. Hence, instead of the 'Day Return' why don't they have a ticket where one date is specified for the outward journey and another for the return journey? The two dates could be the same, effectively the day-return product, or different, in which case the passenger would only be able to travel in one direction on one day and only in the other direction on the other day. That sounds like it should work. Effectively, once purchased it would seem to offer an equivelent degree of flexibility as the current 'Day Return' and hence should cost the same, right?

So let's simplify the system - let's bring the day return ticket into line 

Or you could do that, that sounds like it should work too. (and the return portion of a Metrolink ticket is still valid for the rest of the day, isn't it, not just for 90mins?)

[Brucey]

When you think further, a monthly return is valid for 30 / 31 days from its start date, when you buy a Manchester tram ticket it's valid for 90 minutes from then you purchase it, and when you buy a parking ticket for an hour it's valid from an hour when you buy it and not to the end of the current hour.

So that day return ticket is the exception to the rule - uniquely it seems that it runs out at the end of the current day, and not a day after it starts.    So let's simplify the system - let's bring the day return ticket into line 

You see this abroad.  In Poland a day ticket on the buses/trams is actually valid for 24hr.  The buses and trams have a stamping machine where the time is printed on the ticket after first use.  Same in Italy, a train ticket (for a non-intercity) is valid for two months from purchase and a specified number of hours after it is first stamped (the time varies depending on average journey lengths).  Makes perfect sense, but would require us to fit stations or trains with equipment to mark tickets.

[grahame]

Why are there even 'Day Return' tickets anyway? Generally, you pay more for flexibility ('advance' vs 'off-peak' vs 'anytime'), and the main difference between a day return and a month return is the latter is flexible on the return date, whereas a day return is only valid on the specified date. Hence, instead of the 'Day Return' why don't they have a ticket where one date is specified for the outward journey and another for the return journey?

My understanding is that DAY returns are sold for shorter journeys where there's less chance of the tickets being checked ... an encouragement to the unscrupulous to actually pay something for their travel both ways, by having the relative cost of the second journey low compared to the risk of being caught.   For longer journeys, there's a higher chance of being checked and hence period returns are issued.

One date out and another specific date back?   Potential nightmare in terms of ticket changes; there's a significant people who travel out to work / stay away and only decide which day to come back when their work is done, or may decide to stay an extra night if they're tired after a long week's work / may have to rush home when they hadn't intended to due to domestic pressures.

There's some logic in selling all tickets as singles, and reducing the nightmare queues that would generate due to extra transactions by having a quantity discount on multiple tickets bought at once.  So ... most expensive ticket in a purchase, full price ... all others in the same purchase 25% discount.   Needs some thought.   However

Melksham to London via Swindon

Currently
157, 62.50, 50 return (peak / off-peak / super off-peak)
90, 37, 29 single (peak / off-peak / super off-peak)

Two singles (purchased to make up a return) would become
157.50, 64.75, 50.75
Tickets for two days purchased together, or for two people together, would become
146.25, 60.10, 47.10

Doesn't work as well for fares such as Melksham to Bristol where a single is 9.90 (no off peak fares) and a return is 10.80 off-peak and 10.90 peak - but then you end up asking why the second journey is in effect costed at just 90p

[Rhydgaled]

My understanding is that DAY returns are sold for shorter journeys where there's less chance of the tickets being checked ... an encouragement to the unscrupulous to actually pay something for their travel both ways, by having the relative cost of the second journey low compared to the risk of being caught.   For longer journeys, there's a higher chance of being checked and hence period returns are issued.

Ah, interesting.

One date out and another specific date back?   Potential nightmare in terms of ticket changes; there's a significant people who travel out to work / stay away and only decide which day to come back when their work is done, or may decide to stay an extra night if they're tired after a long week's work / may have to rush home when they hadn't intended to due to domestic pressures.

I was suggesting one date out and another specific date back as a replacement for the DAY RETURN, not the period one. Thus the month return would still be available for those who haven't decided on the specific date when they are coming back.

The 'one date out and another specific date back' ticket would be a half-way house in terms of flexibility between the fully-flexible month return and the booked-trains only offered by buying two advance singles.

[SDS]

Re Metrolink. Sometimes its cheaper just to buy a travelcard as I found out once from Manchester CZ to Alty and "end of the line mate".

There are singles designed for the people who travel at odd times and these are called Carnets. However getting them issued correctly is all part of the fun. I think it works out at 10 for the price of 8 singles or something.

I was under the impression that the railway day ended at 03:59 or is that TfL^» (Transport for London - about)?

Now lets take the 0134 and 0334 departing on 07/07/14 PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - RDG^‡(resolve). A CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/SDR ticket issued on 06/07/14 is it valid on the 0134 and the 0334?? I would say yes as I believe the railway day has not ended, however if you go by the "valid on date shown" then it is not.
Similarly an advance dated CDR/SDR for 07/07/14 is it valid on 23:49 06/07/14 PAD-RDG by reason of the "old if a train starts after 22:00 rule".

Savers / Off peaks / whatever they are called this week (SVR/SSR) Generally are only issued for journeys over 50miles (Not as the crow flies). There are some exceptions to that rule.

[Southern Stag]

The railway day changed a couple of years ago from finishing at 0230 to finishing at 0400, in order to align with TfL^» (Transport for London - about). A ticket dated 06/07/14 would be valid until 0400 07/07/14. Travelling early in the morning it may often be cheaper to buy an Off-Peak Day Return for the previous date as a ticket for the 'correct date' would have to be an Anytime Day Return on many flows.

[JayMac]

Railway day ends at 0429 not 0400.

Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns, GroupSave Day Returns: Valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day, by which time all travel must be completed.

[paul7575]

Travelling early in the morning it may often be cheaper to buy an Off-Peak Day Return for the previous date...

Always assuming you remember to do that before the midnight hour, as they aren't going to be selling them after 0001...

Paul

[WSW Frome]

All this deep analysis on CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) etc is all very interesting for us pedants, BUT:

I would suggest that the real reason that CDRs exist as they do is simply because they are an historic railway product which has never been abandoned with the application of a more modern approach. Surely they were introduced to encourage day excursion traffic to the likes of Blackpool or Bognor as a way of stimulating off-peak and optional travel for Victorian workers. In those times they were just that - a DAY (+ evening) excursion. In modern times the rules have been more formalised and quite probably the validity is now extended into the early hours which did not perhaps apply before.

We all acknowledge the ticketing is too complex and the logical approach is simply to have a form of peak/off peak pricing which would probably be based on single tickets. In The Netherlands rail pricing is essentially single tickets (distance based) with some minor exceptions. Tickets are stamped at the start of travel so that the piece of card has no inherent validity period prior to travel.   

[SDS]

And we have a similar system to stamping before travel. Its called a carnet. However how many people get caught out without putting a date in the box?
Problem being you have to engrave the date using a biro as the ink wont stay on the coated ticket stock.

[Chris from Nailsea]

using a biro

Other brands of ball point pen are also available. 

[Surrey 455]

Talk of the railway day finishing at 4 or 4.30am is curious. I have booked tickets on several occasions online for Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport departing around 3-4am and found this is more expensive than during the day. I can appreciate that travelling after 10am or whatever time off peak starts is cheaper, but I can't see why a train in the early hours could possibly be defined as peak. Anti social hours maybe.

I have bought these tickets by selecting the time of the train online without reservation. The ticket does not specify that I have to travel at a certain time. Reading the comments above, would I be correct in assuming that I could book a ticket for the previous day (at a cheaper price) and travel at 3am the following day?