Advance Ticket - Seat Reservations - Two trains/Two operators

[whole diary]

[Oxonhutch]

A family member has just travelled from Reading to York on an Advance Ticket with seat reservations on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (RDG^▸ (Rail Delivery Group, or Reading station, depending on context)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)) and ECR (KGX-YRK). The reserved connection from RDG was running late (signal problems around Newbury) and the connection time across London was tight at 50 min (via H+C/Circle).

They enquired as to when travel was possible ex-RDG if the booked service (as per seat reservation) was running late, and was told by Customer Services (main concourse RDG) that the only fixed train leg was the long one (KGX-YRK).  The seat reservation on FGW was just generated by "an imperfect system" and that travel from RDG-PAD was available by any reasonable FGW train.

Travel was undertaken using an earlier FGW service to PAD but a lack of ticket inspection en route meant that the advice was untested on the train.  Can anyone vouch for the RDG Customer Service advice; and perhaps point me to an authoritative source as to its veracity. Many thanks.

[JayMac]

Welcome the the forum Oxonhutch! 

It is indeed an imperfect system as your was family member was told.

They were given permission by staff at Reading to travel on an earlier service, so this should carry some weight if any dispute arose later in the journey. In these cases it is always worth having the ticket(s) endorsed, if possible with the station stamp. There is room on the rear of tickets for such endorsements.

There's little, if anything, in the public domain that passengers can refer to for absolutely clarity in the scenario you've highlighted. There is however internal staff guidance on what they should allow passengers to do when they are travelling with Advance Purchase tickets and are facing delays. That guidance to staff is called the 'Advance Fares FAQs^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions)' a .pdf of which is attached to this post.

From that you can see Q22:

Q22. Can a passenger travel on any other service than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A. the following principles apply.

1) Start of the Journey. It is the passenger responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the departure of the first train. If they miss it due to parking problems, taxis not turning up, etc, they must buy a new ticket,

2) Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the train company or it's partners [are] at fault, which should be check by [staff] control office, change to a train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included: are passsengers on valid:

Through domestic or international tickets. e.g. Brighton-Scarborough route TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) X & connections;

Through rail and partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare, e.g. Zone U12-Leeds, Wisbeach coach-York, Ryde Pier-Hull, etc;

Combination of rail only tickets.

e.g. Rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds and Advance Leeds-Peterborough, or adjoining advance fares;

Combination of rail and partner tickets.

e.g. Brighton-Zone U12 plus advance London-Manchester, or;

e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket, plus advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull;

All Zones Travelcards, PTE^▸ (Passenger Transport Executive)-products (where rail is included) plus advance fares, etc;

Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and then either advance tickets from London terminals or "London Intnl CIV^▸ (International Convention for the transportation of Passengers (lit. Convention Internationale pour le transport des Voyageurs))" or Lndon Eurostar CIV;

Not included for the avoidance of doubt, are:

Non train company travel on separate tickets, e.g. tickets that begin on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (this includes "PlusBus", which is a local day-rover bus ticket not compatible with a medium/long distance advance single ticket, so are kept as separate tickets), or;

Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (allowable where electronically checked, verified and advance ticket endorsed in travel centres).

Please note that there is no change to :

a) Any other rules e.g. trains stopping where tickets join together (NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) 19), nor;

b) The need to verify that a train has been delayed on route and ticket endorsed, nor;

c) Any other passenger entitlements as defined by the NRCoC or CIV conditions, nor;

d) General ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies see - here) disruption guidance

e) [Staff] discretion in extreme circumstances.

Then there is Q25:

Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A. Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

An exception that benefits customers: Where East Coast is a connecting TOC from Stevenage via London and vice versa e.g "AP London Reading" or "VWC & connections", East Coast waives the need for travel on the exact East Coast train booked on this relatively short journey Stevenage-Kings Cross, even though retail systems will force a reservation to be made.

There you can see an example of the shorter leg not requiring travel on the exact booked train. Perhaps in the case you highlighted First Great Western also have internal guidance given to staff to show discretion and allow travel on an earlier service, whether it is reservable or not. Advance Purchase fares are not offered by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for journeys solely from Reading to London, but seat reservations will be given by the imperfect system for Advance Purchase fares that include Reading to London as part of a longer journey.

[grahame]

Welcome to the forum

The letter of the law probably required your relative to wait for the delayed train, miss the connection at King's Cross, and travel on a later train from there to York.   However, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are usually quite sensible about these things; I've been given permission to travel on an earlier train because my booked train was very much delayed / possibly going to be cancelled, and a few words of explanation to the train crew was all fine when my ticket *was* checked during the journey.

There is, I fear, a degree of passenger profiling that goes on when these grey areas come up.  I suspect it would have been harder for me had I been intoxicated, much younger, with a poor understanding of English, dressed in a hoodie, heavily tattooed, pierced, filthy-clothed ...

[Trowres]

Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A. Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

I don't think this is very clear. What is the "it" to which the answer refers? Is it the train on which the passenger was supposed to have travelled, or is it the "earlier" train being taken as a contingency?

And what is the meaning of "appropriate" in the ticket conditions?

If the 'Route' also states 'and Connections' travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

[Oxonhutch]

Thank-you for the replies so far.

I posed the question because the advice from Customer Services implied that - even without a delay to a booked service - FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would honour travel by any reasonable connection, and that a FGW (RDG^▸ (Rail Delivery Group, or Reading station, depending on context)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)) Seat Reservation in this circumstance was just fluff generated by the system; i.e. it would always be ignored.

The answers so far seem to imply that FGW's stance is not publically 'official' but rather a de facto discretional easement.

Does this apply to all Advance journeys with a longer onward (Advance Ticket - seat reservation) leg?  I find my journey to be more comfortable (and certainly less stressful) if I can assure myself that I have adhered to all of the rules of the game!

Regards,

[SDS]

I would look at the ticket, determine the longest IC^▸ (Inter City) route and class any other bit as a connecting service. IE PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)/RDG^▸ (Rail Delivery Group, or Reading station, depending on context). If it's say YRK-BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) they would be both mandatory ressies.

But to be really honest, common sense would be exercised.

[Trowres]

With a bit of effort, it is possible to procure an advance single from Trowbridge to Swansea "Route XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and connections". The only XC part of the journey is from Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway - hardly the longest part of the journey!

This is how www.nationalrail.co.uk presented the rules:

Outward: Route of ticket XC &CONNECTIONS - ROUTE OF TICKET XC &CONNECTIONS - Only valid on booked CrossCountry services and required connecting services. This fare is only valid on the train(s) specified.

With a bit of playing with the options for increasing connection margins, it was possible to persuade the journey planner to give alternative trains between Trowbridge and Bristol Temple Meads at the same fare, so I suspect that the statement "only valid on the train(s) specified" is being economical with the truth.

Frankly, passengers shouldn't be subject to worry caused by inconsistent application of poorly-worded regulations. I wonder why Passenger Focus haven't made more of a fuss about this.

[SDS]

With a bit of effort, it is possible to procure an advance single from Trowbridge to Swansea "Route XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and connections". The only XC part of the journey is from Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway - hardly the longest part of the journey!

This is how www.nationalrail.co.uk presented the rules:

Outward: Route of ticket XC &CONNECTIONS - ROUTE OF TICKET XC &CONNECTIONS - Only valid on booked CrossCountry services and required connecting services. This fare is only valid on the train(s) specified.

With a bit of playing with the options for increasing connection margins, it was possible to persuade the journey planner to give alternative trains between Trowbridge and Bristol Temple Meads at the same fare, so I suspect that the statement "only valid on the train(s) specified" is being economical with the truth.

Frankly, passengers shouldn't be subject to worry caused by inconsistent application of poorly-worded regulations. I wonder why Passenger Focus haven't made more of a fuss about this.

In the good old days of Super Apex^▸ (Advanced Purchase Excursion (fare)), Apex and Super Advances, you would write the train details on the back of the aptis ticket. Ah gone are those days.

[thetrout]

If it's say YRK-BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) they would be both mandatory ressies.

I assume you mean via Reading and London Paddington/London Kings Cross on that one?

(Looks at imaginary, fictitious CrossCountry Voyager heading to York from Bristol Temple Meads)

[SDS]

If it's say YRK-BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) they would be both mandatory ressies.

I assume you mean via Reading and London Paddington/London Kings Cross on that one?

(Looks at imaginary, fictitious CrossCountry Voyager heading to York from Bristol Temple Meads)

Eww Vomitor. No thanks. A nice 200 late HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) anyday!