Petition - "WE JUST LOVE THE ENGLAND BUS PASS"

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Old man to me telling him about the new train service: "I won't use it. I have to pay to use the train, but the bus is free."

Me to old man: "No - you pay if you travel by train, and I pay for you through my taxes is you travel by bus - it's not free"

from my email:

I^M WRITING to invite all your readers, old and young, to request copies of the Love the Bus Pass petition, and help the campaign reach 100,000 pen-on-paper signatures by the end of August (currently we^re on 42,000).

They will be delivered to Downing Street on September 10, when we will also lobby our respective MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament). County Press readers are welcome to join us.

The petition is the first major step on the way for this non-partisan campaign, which aims to get all major parties contesting the General Election to pledge to retain the England bus pass as a universal entitlement, free at the point of use. The campaign is supported by the National Pensioners^ Convention.

Here^s the problem ^ while all major parties pledged before the 2010 election to keep the pass, high-ranking Coalition politicians soon started to call for 'reform^. In 2011, Brandon Lewis MP, protege of Eric Pickles, stated on the Conservative Home website the scheme had never been affordable, albeit his party hadn^t wished to publicise this before the election, for fear of 'alarming^ voters.

Nick Clegg then called for a ban on 'millionaires^ joyriding on the buses, which would save next to nothing but is a neat way of destroying the principle of universal entitlement and bringing in means testing, with the bar being lowered over time to exclude more and more pass-holders.

In mid-2012, the press reported David Cameron, if returned in 2015, would legislate to abolish the pass in it present form. Again, this January, he refused to commit to retaining it.

The huge social, economic, health and well-being benefits of the pass are at risk: politicians of all parties need to understand that they attack the bus pass at their electoral peril.

Readers can request petition forms and more information by e-mail, for printing off and signing, richardvworrall@yahoo.com by phone 01922 641084 or post 46 Winn House, Burrowes Street, Walsall, West Midlands, WS2 8NW, giving name and address, and campaign material will be posted to

And passed to me with the comment

For circulation

I will certainly fight to keep my pass due to its environmental attributes and without it lots more rural services will be cut.

See petition attached for anyone willing to collect signatures

[anthony215]

Truth be told I dont think the shceme can fully continue as it is now as the costs are just going up. Money has to come from somewhere and lets face it would you want to have a situation where you have a bus pass but no bus services to use it on.

I dont think it was expected that the older population would continue increasing a smuch as it has done when this whole shcme was thought up and introduced.

There is nothing wrong with oap's paying discounted fares as they do with a over 60's railcard when they travel by rail especially when you see many of the younger generation struggling to pay for their travel costs while some of the money paid in taxes is spent on the free bus pass scheme.

I drive buses in Worcester where you cannot use your passes before 0930 and after 2300 on weekdays which is accepted by a lot of oap's but you do get a large amount who moan and complain and whom seem to think they should get everything for nothing despite taxypayers like myself(I do pay a hell of a lot of tax) having to pay for it.

[ChrisB]

"Health & well-being"?....yes, if you exercise. Sutting on buses saily just helps the overweight stay that way, and the healthy to get less healthy.

And its too new to say universal entitldment applies for ever

[John R]

There are so many things wrong with the free bus pass it's difficult to know where to start.

Entitlement that begins before state pension age for one (although this is gradually being abolished, and like most things that have the word "pension" in them is complicated). Why should people get one when still at working age?

Universal entitlement shortly after state pension age when the vast majority at that age would probably be hail and hearty, still running a car, and in many cases in receipt of nice employer pensions. Why should society offer a free benefit to those able to pay?

A system that offers use without any payment provides a distortion of demand. As seen on the Heart of Wales line when senior citizens are able to travel free and swamp the service, so that fare paying passengers couldnt get a seat.

A system that costs the local authority the same whether the individual has travelled one stop or 20 miles. And with travel free, how many only travel one stop, thus inflating the cost, and discouraging a degree of walking that will be good for the health of the individual.

I would do a combination of some or all of the following:-

Only offered after the 75th birthday.
Only offered to those in receipt of a state benefit other than the state pension (this would entitle those with a degree of invalidity or who have limited means).
Make the payment to operators a flat % of the normal fare for the journey.
Make the pass a 75% off pass, so that some payment is made (rounded to the nearer 10p), but it's never going to break the bank.





 

 

[LiskeardRich]

I would do a combination of some or all of the following:-

Only offered after the 75th birthday.
Only offered to those in receipt of a state benefit other than the state pension (this would entitle those with a degree of invalidity or who have limited means).
Make the payment to operators a flat % of the normal fare for the journey.
Make the pass a 75% off pass, so that some payment is made (rounded to the nearer 10p), but it's never going to break the bank.

Potentially add the following as well
Offer to those who have medical conditions or disabilities.
Offer to those who have a driving licence revoked due to medical failure.

In reality the longer the bus pass remains the more routes are going to disappear as operators cant afford to run them where 80% of the patrons are the bus pass brigade.  If this happens they wont have any services to use their passes on anyway.

[Phil]

I'd give bus passes to students and the unemployed, as they're the ones who need them, not people who have had their entire working lives to save up for travelling around in their leisure time (and I write that as someone in receipt of a pension myself)

[thetrout]

For circulation

I will certainly fight to keep my pass due to its environmental attributes and without it lots more rural services will be cut.

See petition attached for anyone willing to collect signatures

**RANT ALERT**

I've only skim read. But that comment in bold has struck a very sore nerve with me!

On Saturdays in Frome, The Service 30 was completely withdrawn by FirstBus... This was a very well loaded service on the weekend. So why was it withdrawn you might ask? Nearly all of it's passengers were ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) Pass Holders and it was effectively creating a money pit for First Bus

So no. I do not agree that it prevents rural services being withdrawn. Quite the opposite happens actually.

Potentially add the following as well
Offer to those who have medical conditions or disabilities.
Offer to those who have a driving licence revoked due to medical failure.

Yes please No Driving License for life here and Taxis are not cheap!

In reality the longer the bus pass remains the more routes are going to disappear as operators cant afford to run them where 80% of the patrons are the bus pass brigade.  If this happens they wont have any services to use their passes on anyway.

Looks like my echo has entered into the matrix... I have raised this in a few public transport meetings.

"It's all very well and good The Council saying: "Have a Bus Pass for free travel" except it's only as good to you if you have the services to use it on


On the flip side of that I got into a very hostile argument over the use of my pass by a group of people waiting at The Market Place Bus Stop after they boarded a 234 Service and had to pay and I didn't... I respectfully declined their suggestion to "Pay up like everyone else does" because I normally use trains which I DO pay for. In addition to that, I usually travel First Class, so the train company gets even more revenue out of me then otherwise it would normally! If perhaps I did not have my railcard, I would not be travelling First Class. But with that logic I wouldn't have an ENCTS Pass either

So the odd use of the pass if the times are right I don't see causing any harm...

I appreciate the Tax Payer argument on all of this and I have not taken any comments personally. I am speaking in an entirely liberal sense. I never choose to have my disabilities. They were not self inflicted. If someone is going to offer me free transport because of it, to make things easier, then I'm sorry but I am going to accept the offer.

Lets throw the baby out the bath water now and look at all the large cooperation who don't pay their CT Tax...

I could name some that are common knowledge... But either way, I don't fancy a litigation notice for Libel any time soon

[John R]

I appreciate the Tax Payer argument on all of this and I have not taken any comments personally. I am speaking in an entirely liberal sense. I never choose to have my disabilities. They were not self inflicted. If someone is going to offer me free transport because of it, to make things easier, then I'm sorry but I am going to accept the offer.

I don't think anyone has suggested that those with disabilities should pay. The subject was focused on those over 60, and it appears a consensus that those disadvantaged in some way should continue to benefit from the scheme. I must confess I wasn't even aware that those with disabilities below 60 get free travel, but that would make sense, and if funds are limited I would much rather see those benefitting from the scheme than the more "age-disadvantaged" that have the financial means to pay.

[TaplowGreen]

I appreciate the Tax Payer argument on all of this and I have not taken any comments personally. I am speaking in an entirely liberal sense. I never choose to have my disabilities. They were not self inflicted. If someone is going to offer me free transport because of it, to make things easier, then I'm sorry but I am going to accept the offer.

I don't think anyone has suggested that those with disabilities should pay. The subject was focused on those over 60, and it appears a consensus that those disadvantaged in some way should continue to benefit from the scheme. I must confess I wasn't even aware that those with disabilities below 60 get free travel, but that would make sense, and if funds are limited I would much rather see those benefitting from the scheme than the more "age-disadvantaged" that have the financial means to pay.

Clearly it's also inappropriate for past and present rail employees to enjoy free travel on trains taking into account the fact that the taxpayer subsidises that too?

[John R]

It's a completely separate debate, as to what level of concessionary travel past and present employees of the rail industry get. And the discussion is about the bus scheme, not the rail industry.  What's offered for employees will to a large extent be contractual, as opposed to social policy.

[TaplowGreen]

The original poster stated the following....."Old man to me telling him about the new train service: "I won't use it. I have to pay to use the train, but the bus is free."

Me to old man: "No - you pay if you travel by train, and I pay for you through my taxes is you travel by bus - it's not free"

............so the principle is that free bus travel is not free but subsidised by the taxpayer..........as the taxpayer massively subsidises the rail industry, it therefore follows that the same applies to those who get "free" travel on the railways......same principle, the only difference is the type of vehicle!

[Network SouthEast]

Not quite the same as rail staff are taxed for their travel concessions as a benefit in kind regardless of whether they use them or not.

The bus pass scheme costs the tax payer more in reimbursements the more it is used, but the rail staff free travel does not.

If you feel strongly on the subject are you going to start a petition to revoke staff travel concessions?

[JayMac]

Rail staff travel is far less generous these days than ever it was in the time of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)).

Although, the Privilege discount of 75% off is being extended to Off Peak tickets from September. Currently it is only available on Anytime tickets.

[Super Guard]

If you feel strongly on the subject are you going to start a petition to revoke staff travel concessions?

Please don't give him ideas.

I wonder how many rail services have been withdrawn due to free staff travel making them uneconomical?

Rail staff travel is far less generous these days than ever it was in the time of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)).

Although, the Privilege discount of 75% off is being extended to Off Peak tickets from September. Currently it is only available on Anytime tickets.

As has been stated before, the most generous benefits (ex-BR) are safeguarded (a condition of privatisation) and also taxable.

[TaplowGreen]

Rail staff travel is far less generous these days than ever it was in the time of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)).

Although, the Privilege discount of 75% off is being extended to Off Peak tickets from September. Currently it is only available on Anytime tickets.

....and quite right too, the taxpayer should not be subsidising this sort of thing.

As for the specific bus pass question, you're right it is a social policy, with social benefits.....also cuts down on traffic. I'm not entirely convinced however that it should be on a "blanket" basis, but it would be a brave Government who risked alienating the "grey vote"  

.....just out of interest, how exactly are the travel benefits of retired BR employees taxed?