Cash only station?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Furze Platt: Ticket Office problem At Furze Platt station.
Ticket Office problem
Additional Information:
The Ticket Office is unable to accept payment by credit or debit card due to a technical fault, cash payments only for the remainder of the week.

Credit or debit card has become almost universal, but I remember at one time being told that this method of paying was purely a facility that companies could offer, and that potential customer owing money / debts being settled could legally be required to pay / settle debts in cash.

Will people who turn up at the station with a card have to scurry off to the nearest ATM^‡(resolve)? 

[JayMac]

TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are obliged by their Franchise Agreement and the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement to accept credit and debit cards at regulated stations. Furze Platt is one such station.

If for technical reasons that isn't possible then I'd hope passengers would be given permission to travel and to then purchase at the next available opportunity. I don't think sending them to an ATM^‡(resolve) is particularly practical as it could mean missing a train. Looking at Google Maps the nearest ATM is a 6 minute round trip on foot. That one is in a convenience store and may not be free to use.

[bobm]

According to Link's ATM^‡(resolve) finder, it is a free to use cash machine - but I agree with bignosemac, that is hardly the point.  Passengers without cash should be allowed to buy on board or at their destination station (or interchange station if there is time).

[Fourbee]

And vice-versa for those TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) where cash payments have been disbaled (some stations on the North Downs Line at least) where the passenger does not have a usable card, no other facilities available etc.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

The law is that cash is legal tender and a vendor can refuse to accept other forms in payment such as cheques and credit/debit cards at their discretion. As pointed out above, contracts such as the rail companies have may provide that the company has to offer such a service. Remember also that there are legal limits on the amount and form of a cash payment. A shop may refuse to accept a cash payment offered in the form of a large number of small value coins, the exact limits of which I cannot now recall. As a former cashier I well remember people who collected all their small change in a large container coming in to pay their rates bill and they were a pain in the neck. Although in law I could have refused such payment, it was my authority's policy to accept any method. Of course in those days there was no such thing as cards.

[bobm]

The other side of the coin (or should that be note) is some places will not accept ^50 notes for low value transactions.  That includes those TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) which do accept cash.

[Western Explorer]

You would think that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would have one or two mobile credit card machines for use in emergencies. Not a hope!

[JayMac]

Remember also that there are legal limits on the amount and form of a cash payment. A shop may refuse to accept a cash payment offered in the form of a large number of small value coins, the exact limits of which I cannot now recall. As a former cashier I well remember people who collected all their small change in a large container coming in to pay their rates bill and they were a pain in the neck. Although in law I could have refused such payment, it was my authority's policy to accept any method.

'Legal Tender' actually has a very narrow definition and a shop/service provider is neither breaking nor complying with any laws as regards the denominations it is willing to accept or refuse. It's entirely a matter between the shop/service provider and customer to agree price and payment. Only when it comes to the settling of debts does 'legal tender' become legally defined.

From The Royal Mint's Legal Tender Guidlines:

Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

The amounts for legal tender for the settlement of debts are stated below.

Notes:
In England and Wales the ^5, ^10, ^20 and ^50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount. However, they are not legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Coins:

Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:

^20 - for any amount
^5 (Crown) - for any amount
^2 - for any amount
^1 - for any amount
50p - for any amount not exceeding ^10
25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding ^10
20p - for any amount not exceeding ^10
10p - for any amount not exceeding ^5
5p - for any amount not exceeding ^5
2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p
1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

[SDS]

I have had my ^20 coins (not notes) refused when attempting to pay my council tax bill and also when trying to purchase a ticket from Liverpool Street. Mind you they are sterling silver and pretty rare.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/10288185/Royal-Mint-creates-first-20-coin.html


I do remember one dispute I had with my useless local council. I threatened to pay in ^1 coins if the issue was never resolved. It wasn't so I phoned the bank up, made an order for the ^1 coins, then went to the council offices and paid for it in ^1 coins. Took the poor lass ages to count it all up, told her the real reasons why and who she could harass and blame upstairs for it.
Anyway the very next day an apologetic phone call came and the issue was resolved pretty quickly afterwards.

[JayMac]

Well the station were free to say no as they are under no legal obligation to accept a ^20 coin. Or any monies proffered. It is entirely a matter between customer and service provider/retailer as to how a transaction is completed. If they refuse your money you have no recourse to law. Legal tender does not have to be accepted before a debt arises.

With the council though you offered legal tender to settle a debt. They can still refuse your ^20 coin, but the debt would remain. A debt is not discharged if you offer legal tender and it is refused. Should the council sue to recover the debt they would be unlikely to be awarded costs after refusing legal tender and prosecution for non-payment would likely fail. The court would likely just order the debt be paid and the council told to accept the legal tender.

[grahame]

I do remember one dispute I had with my useless local council. I threatened to pay in ^1 coins if the issue was never resolved. It wasn't so ...

I remember doing something similar when settling with my "ex";  some investments were in my name, but the agreement made was that I get the equity in the house and she get the investments.  That was arranged in two halves and she was unhappy (British understatement!  ) when I simply transferred assets over so that she could the convert them to whatever she wanted without losses "churning" though several forms.   She was - furious - "I wanted and asked for CASH".   So that's what she got for the second tranche - and there was a special bank order and rather a lot of bits of paper!  "That was very silly and childish ... I meant a cheque ... " 

All a very long time ago - Lisa and I have been married 16 years this year after courting for two,  and I didn't even know Lisa until I was divorced.  Don't think of the ex too often these days, thanks for bringing her back SDS  . Wounds do heal, though ... saw her last summer at our daughter's wedding and reception; she seems happy with her new 'family'. Should probably have asked for some cash to help with wedding costs.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

As a now ex Local Government Officer it is sad to read the comments above about useless local authorities but I suspect they may be right. 50 years ago one of my first jobs was as a local authority cashier (before I qualified as a professional CIPFA accountant) and the emphasis was always on customer service and helping the customer even if it meant spending quarter of an hour counting a huge bottle of coins brought in to pay the rates bill. I was also a rent collector for a while and well remember one very elderly tenant who lived alone and was both blind and deaf. I was told that after dealing with her rent payment, I had to clear out the fire, bring in from the back yard the logs and coal for the day and make sure the fire was going. I communicat5ed with her by writing with my finger on the palm of her hand. But that was in the days when there was customer service and my boss, the Borough Treasurer, always used to say try and give a smile and a thank you to customers. It makes me glad that I am now retired when I read how public service has deteriorated over the years.

[SDS]

I went down the post office today to be annoying see if they would accept my coins.

The cashier had never seen a ^20 coin before. I also have a load of ^5 coins/crowns as well. Apparently they can accept the ^5 coins for payments of services, but the ^20 is a no no as its not on 'approved list'.
What the hell they gonna think when the new ^10/ ^25/ ^50/ ^100 coins start appearing??

[Network SouthEast]

I suppose part of the problem is that it is hard to tell an official Royal Mint ^5 coin apart from a Tom/Dick/Harry ^5 coin, which if you are lucky is only valid in Jersey, if at all.

I've done some research and it appears the Royal Mint have never produced a ^20 coin - BUT one will be released and shipped to those that ordered one this July according to their website.

[JayMac]

That link states quite clearly that the first ^20 coin has now sold out. The one currently advertised will be the second issue of a ^20 coin.

The ^20 'George & Dragon' coin was struck and issued in 2013. 250,000 issued and now sold out. Plenty available on the second hand market.