GroupSave changes from May 2014

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Not via their booking engine. Just tried a sample Birmingham Moor St to Banbury journey. All valid fare types only offering 34% off each for a group of 4.

So that means at stations only if this tweet is correct. And for what fares? All valid ones purchased from a Chiltern station, or just flows they price?

[ChrisB]

Just flows they price, I'm pretty sure. Other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) wouldn't be happy - but I can check...

[JayMac]

Bicester North to High Wycombe (Off Peak Day Return priced by Chiltern) for four people is only giving a 34% discount:



Individual price on that flow for an Off Peak Day Return is ^12.70. So if the old offer was still available the total price should be ^25.40, not ^33.60.

This is not the only flow I've checked. There are very few Chiltern Only walk-up tickets, but even the ones I've checked of those are only offering a 34% discount to groups of four.

I think Chiltern on Twitter are wrong.

[JayMac]

EDIT:(I was wrong. Sort of. Apologies. Booking engine not currently offering 4 for 2. Chiltern stations apparently are.)

Chiltern are saying on Twitter that they are continuing the old offer (4 for 2). Having spoken on the phone to them they've confirmed this, currently only available from stations until the booking engine is updated.

I was told it is only for flows they price, but what about tickets marked 'Any Permitted'?

So it looks like complexity and potential problems have been added to the system by one rogue TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). This is not the same as the issue with CrossCountry not accepting 'Any Permitted' GroupSave discounted tickets as they are not in the GroupSave scheme full stop.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are in the GroupSave scheme. So what If I purchase London Terminals to Banbury Off Peak Return (Any Permitted) GroupSave 4 for 2, which is priced by Chiltern? That should be valid from Paddington via Oxford as well as direct from Marylebone. Chiltern told me by phone that FGW won't accept the old offer. How so? Any such restriction should be printed on the ticket. Can FGW get away with saying we accept GroupSave, but not this type of GroupSave? Surely Chiltern need to introduce Chiltern Only to all the flows where they are pricing GroupSave valid fares at 4 for the price of 2.

It's not just with FGW there could be problems. There are 'Any Permitted' flows priced by Chiltern where you can use London Midland for part of the journey as well. London Midland are also in the GroupSave scheme.

[ChrisB]

Agree - don't think they can unanimously declare acceptance of old offer without agreeing with alternative carriers of same tickets, or otherwise introduce Chiltern-only tickets.

Got the reaction I expected, didn't think I was wrong. Thanks. wait for the expected problems now.

[IndustryInsider]

So, on the one hand Chiltern are guilty of immediately making the new, simplified, GroupSave offer more complicated, but on the other hand are giving their customer who are lucky enough to travel on flows that they price a better deal?

[JayMac]

The plot thickens. It would appear that Chiltern have no option but to continue the original GroupSave offer, lest they be in breach of their franchise terms:

From the Chiltern Railways Franchise Agreement:

12.3 Group and Family Travel

12.3.2 The Franchise Operator shall maintain an offer which allows three or four adults to travel on Passenger Services to and from a London Station, other than those stations operated by LUL^▸ (London Underground Ltd), for a price equal to the Fare of two adults travelling on the same journey. This offer shall apply to those Fares known as Cheap Day Returns, Stayaways, Savers, and Network Awaybreaks and any equivalent or replacement Fares, but shall not be valid for travel before 10.00 and for travel from a London Station between 16.45 and 19.00 in both cases from Mondays to Fridays (inclusive). The Franchise Operator may amend time restrictions and levels of discount from time to time with prior consent of the Authority, such consent not to be unreasonably delayed or withheld.

So the offer can be amended on consultation with the 'Authority' (cf the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)), but how do they do so to comply with the first sentence which says "...for a price equal to the Fare of two adults travelling on the same journey"?

Chiltern have said they are continuing the 'old' offer, so that would presume they have to in order to comply with their franchise obligations.

The waters remain muddied though as to what happens with tickets for flows priced by Chiltern that are marked 'Any Permitted' and potentially allow travel on other operators who are also in the GroupSave scheme.

Another bit of tinkering with the fares system that has fallen foul of the over complex and not fit for purpose privatised rail industry that we currently have. Just highlights the near impossibility of getting everyone to sing from the same song sheet. Even if everyone wants to, there will be some legal reason why one TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) can't.

I suspect what'll happen in time is that Chiltern go their own way with their Group Travel offer, further eroding the inter-availability of fares on the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail network. "Britain's train companies working together" as ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies see - here) would have us believe? Pah. 

My thanks go to Ollie for pointing me in the direction of the Chiltern Franchise Agreement.

[ChrisB]

The first sentence refers to the level of discount. As you state, this can be changed in agreement with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about). such a change would scist as a public document on the DfT website, which I can't see on first glance.

Susoect they might have missed this until it was too late to losge the request. They may alredy be preparing to ask, and hoping that they can get it done before someone points out that it ought to be available still on all sales channels...which will cost them a fortune in getting the change specially enabled just for them (while other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) using the same e-engine then tuen it off)

[Brucey]

The first sentence refers to the level of discount. As you state, this can be changed in agreement with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about). such a change would scist as a public document on the DfT website, which I can't see on first glance.

But would the document have to be published immediately?  I distinctly remember the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) being changed (and approved by DfT) without any public announcements or documents being issued beforehand.

[ChrisB]

As it goes out for consultation, yes.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Just to clarify, ChrisB: are you saying that Chiltern's proposal to change the level of discount should have appeared on the Department for Transport website - but apparently it does not? 

[ChrisB]

They haven't changed their offer (except its not fully available across all outlet types), so no request to change needs to be made, and thus, no, I'm not