The Most Expensive Railway in Europe?

[whole diary]

[Trainspotter]

I have herd many claims such as

* "First buses in bristol cost more per mile than concorde"
* "First Great western has the most expensive rail tickets in europe"

allong with many other more generic "first is crap" type comments, but i am more interested in knowing if anyone else has any evidence/opinion/contribution to this topic of First running the most expensive railway in europe. Is it true??

[Btline]

Welcome to the board, train-spotter!

I expect you are right!
 

[vacman]

It all depends, if you look at cheap day returns in the far south west then you will see that they are about the cheapest off peak fares in Britain! Penzance-Plymouth ^9.00 day return! Falmouth-Truro ^3.00 return? Not bad really, cheaper than driving! but then again it is a bit of a postcode lottery!

[smokey]

Cornish fares MAY be about the cheapest in the Country, but Cornish wages are amongest the WORST IN EUROPE.

Train Fares are set to capture the best return, being pushed up to Cut demand as Swindon travellers known.

It's also a trick to reduce passenger numbers on some services the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would love to shut.

[grahame]

This is a complicated one!  One of the big problems (as I see it) from the current fares structure is that it is overcomplicated, varies far wider than perhaps it should and has loads of historic anomolies in it.  OK; end of rant.

I believe that at one time, CHIPPENHAM to London was the most expensive main line normal return fare anywhere in Europe in pence per mile. But that was exceeeded hansomely by journeys such as Llanberis to Snowdon Summit.

[Shazz]

Cornish fares MAY be about the cheapest in the Country, but Cornish wages are amongest the WORST IN EUROPE.

Train Fares are set to capture the best return, being pushed up to Cut demand as Swindon travellers known.

It's also a trick to reduce passenger numbers on some services the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would love to shut.

You say that, but cornish actually get quite a good level of pay now, as theres little to no unemployment down there these days. So wages need to be higher to keep people in the job

[vacman]

Cornish fares MAY be about the cheapest in the Country, but Cornish wages are amongest the WORST IN EUROPE.

Train Fares are set to capture the best return, being pushed up to Cut demand as Swindon travellers known.

It's also a trick to reduce passenger numbers on some services the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would love to shut.

You can find a problem for every solution smokey! wages in South Wales are worse than Cornwall and amongst most of the North of England, bear in mind that cheap day fares across most of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) network are cheaper per mile than other TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s, along with FGW season's, the fares on the Bristol-Pad corridor are very high but you pay a premium for a high speed service (in theory!!), I think between Bristol and Pad the line speed doesn't really go below 100mph, fares are based on demand but what in life isn't? house prices are higher in areas that people want to buy houses, hotels are more expensive in high demand areas, you pay premiums for lots of things so why should the railway be any different? It's life!

[vacman]

Cornish fares MAY be about the cheapest in the Country, but Cornish wages are amongest the WORST IN EUROPE.

Train Fares are set to capture the best return, being pushed up to Cut demand as Swindon travellers known.

It's also a trick to reduce passenger numbers on some services the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would love to shut.

You say that, but cornish actually get quite a good level of pay now, as theres little to no unemployment down there these days. So wages need to be higher to keep people in the job

Have to dissagree there, Cornwall is mostly full of spongeing dole-ites, particularly in the Redruth/Camborne/Penzance area's!

[Shazz]

Cornish fares MAY be about the cheapest in the Country, but Cornish wages are amongest the WORST IN EUROPE.

Train Fares are set to capture the best return, being pushed up to Cut demand as Swindon travellers known.

It's also a trick to reduce passenger numbers on some services the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would love to shut.

You say that, but cornish actually get quite a good level of pay now, as theres little to no unemployment down there these days. So wages need to be higher to keep people in the job

Have to dissagree there, Cornwall is mostly full of spongeing dole-ites, particularly in the Redruth/Camborne/Penzance area's!

Then the statisticians who worked it out a few years ago clearly suck 

[vacman]

They probably did it in summer! unemployment goes right down for two months of the year-July and August!

[Shazz]

wouldn't suprise me.

[Mookiemoo]

I have herd many claims such as

* "First buses in bristol cost more per mile than concorde"
* "First Great western has the most expensive rail tickets in europe"

allong with many other more generic "first is crap" type comments, but i am more interested in knowing if anyone else has any evidence/opinion/contribution to this topic of First running the most expensive railway in europe. Is it true??

I can only give you anecdotal evidence as someone who uses rail where possible in UK^▸ (United Kingdom)/Germany/France......I'll split this into local and then long distance travel - the one thing I will say for both modes is that it is more reliable on the continent than it is in the UK.  For example, when I return from Munich I know the S-bahn S8 is due at 09, 29 and 49 past the hour.  I have never once known it to (a) be cancelled or (b) turn up later than 10, 30 or 50 past

Now:

Local - fare structures tend to be easier to understand - no off peak/on peak/oyster/scallop/mussel/cockel differentials.  Tickets work similar to the underground - In term so cost - it is cheaper.  e.g. central london costs ^4.00 - central munich is ^2.00.  Central Berlin - ^2.00.  Last time I travelled in Paris - ^2.50.

It is also very very easy for a foreigner who speaks none of the language (I speak SPanish but not german or french) to figure out the system. 

If I land at CDG, Munich etc at 11pm - I know the local trains are still running, clean and safe.  If I landed at Heathrow at 11 - I'd get a cab.

Distance - cheaper.  First Class Munich to Berlin on the ICE was ^100 - that is a six hour journey.  The suual of reliable also holds.  HOWEVER they ar slightly more complicated in terms of buying tickets.  In the UK you walk up and buy a ticket for any train journey from any station.  You cannot necessarily get an ICE ticket at the same place as an SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) ticket.  I cant easily buy a ticket here for travel in Europe - otherwise next time I go to Munich I'd get the Eurostar to Paris then ICE to Munich on the overnight sleeper - cheaper than the plane and delivers me outside the office. However you have to book 7 days in advance as they can only post them to you if you are in UK - I have european friends who can buy online and pick up from ticket machines - I dont normally get 7 days notice!

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) compared to the rest of the country.  FGW walk on fares do tend to be cheaper - both standard and first.  BUT the others do a lot more in terms of peak time discounting with book in advance.  First - FGW see as a cash cow and rarely do any form of discount - Virgin you can get a ^100.60 ticket for ^24 if you book 3 days in advance (or you could before 1/1) - which is why Virgins season tickets are roughly the same as FGW - they know if they charge too much the people who would use seasons would just book in advance for every day.   

I cannot comment on standard - but I do know also that the service first passengers with FGW get is less than the other major intercity TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s.  e.g. if I go virgin - I get free wine and food every night (ok - if I do it five nights in a row the menu is the same five nights in a row - but I get fed and I dont have to worry about feeding myself when I get home).  Same with GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways).  Even virgin cross country gave you a decent packed lunch.

Maybe the problem with FGW is they dont differentiate enough in fares between first and standard.  After the upgrade and fare increase I worked out whether it is worth me going standard - I get on at the start of the journey (in effect) in both directions and can usually be the first on the train so getting a table shouldnt be an issue (although I would be more cramped) but the maths do not add up:

Standard class monthly season WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) = 617.90
First class monthly season WOS - PAD = 1075.70 (if you break it at oxford - there is no such benefit for standard if they brak at oxford)

Difference = 457.80

Less 40% which the amount I save in tax = 274.68

Divide by 22 days - the average working days in a month = 12.49 per day

Buy a cup of tea or two on the way down and back and you are paying pennies for virtually guaranteeing a seat and not sniffing someones armpit

Once I worked that out - it was a no brainer!

[12hoursunday]

I have herd many claims such as

* "First buses in bristol cost more per mile than concorde"
* "First Great western has the most expensive rail tickets in europe"

allong with many other more generic "first is crap" type comments, but i am more interested in knowing if anyone else has any evidence/opinion/contribution to this topic of First running the most expensive railway in europe. Is it true??

The Great Western mainline has been the most expensive railway in europe for many years. (most likely 10 or 15 years or longer) So, it ain't a Firstgroup thing, O.K!

[Tim]

I have herd many claims such as

* "First buses in bristol cost more per mile than concorde"
* "First Great western has the most expensive rail tickets in europe"

allong with many other more generic "first is crap" type comments, but i am more interested in knowing if anyone else has any evidence/opinion/contribution to this topic of First running the most expensive railway in europe. Is it true??

The Great Western mainline has been the most expensive railway in europe for many years. (most likely 10 or 15 years or longer) So, it ain't a Firstgroup thing, O.K!

Correct - it is a hang-over from BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) but it is stupid that current fares are still tied to what BR charged 15 years ago.  Circumstances have changes since then.  Demand patterns have changed, towns have grown and servcie patterns have changed.  As an example, the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) is more expensive than the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line).  This made sense in 1995 when the WCML was clapped out and the ECML was recently refurbished and much faster, but the differential continues to thsi day even though the WCML is now much improved and faster with new trains and the ECML is wearing out.  The result is that passengers on the ECML pay a huge premium payment to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) whereas teh WCML gets a subsidy.  BR would have adjusted its fares after refurbishments but the current operators just increase their fares by an across teh board percentage.  The whole system needs to be scrapped and rebuilt. 

[vacman]

I agree, the best thing with the fares structure is to scrap it and start again with a blank canvas!