Why didnt it stop?!?

[whole diary]

[Electric train]

No service running on the fast lines between Paddington and Reading should be stopping at the likes of Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford.  Would improve punctuality no end.

However it would aggrieve many thousands of passengers that use these station if the fast stops were removed just for the sake of a little bit of punctuality, just build better margins in

[a-driver]

No service running on the fast lines between Paddington and Reading should be stopping at the likes of Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford.  Would improve punctuality no end.

However it would aggrieve many thousands of passengers that use these station if the fast stops were removed just for the sake of a little bit of punctuality, just build better margins in

True.  It's more than a little bit of punctuality though.  1 train running late in the peak and the delays escalate from there.  There isn't the space on the line between Reading and Paddington to build in better margins.  Stopping a service at just one station costs about 8 minutes with an HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

[IndustryInsider]

Eight minutes is a slight exaggeration, probably nearer five minutes if it's a stop on a 125mph stretch of line like Maidenhead and Slough.  There's little point tinkering with anything until the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s arrive and the line upgrades are complete in a few years time.  IEP's will reduce station dwell times and improve acceleration which in itself will create extra capacity without all the other improvements being made.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s will reduce station dwell times and improve acceleration which in itself will create extra capacity without all the other improvements being made.

I'm afraid that I don't quite understand that last remark. I can't see that the dwell times will be much different between IEPs and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), they've both got doors at the ends of the passenger accommodation so there will still be a scrum to get out (and in!). The power doors may make a difference in preparing the train for departure - at a guess I'd say 15 to 20 secs but I could be wrong.

Slowing for a stop will be just a painfully long drawn out as it is now since the adoption of 'defensive driving' so the IEPs won't make difference there either. The only significant benefit will be in the acceleration in the upper speed ranges.

On a slightly different topic - is there a hope that approaches to Reading in the down direction at least may be a little bit more enthusiastic as the serious consequences of a SPAD^▸ (Signal Passed At Danger) over the Westbury Line Junction will have been eliminated with the new layout?

Removed errant bullet points

[IndustryInsider]

IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s will reduce station dwell times and improve acceleration which in itself will create extra capacity without all the other improvements being made.

I'm afraid that I don't quite understand that last remark. I can't see that the dwell times will be much different between IEPs and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), they've both got doors at the ends of the passenger accommodation so there will still be a scrum to get out (and in!). The power doors may make a difference in preparing the train for departure - at a guess I'd say 15 to 20 secs but I could be wrong.

Slowing for a stop will be just a painfully long drawn out as it is now since the adoption of 'defensive driving' so the IEPs won't make difference there either. The only significant benefit will be in the acceleration in the upper speed ranges.

Dwell times are reduced because of power operated doors saving as you say 15-20 seconds.  It will be a lot more than that at the unstaffed stations, but as Maidenhead and Slough have despatch staff we'll take that as a good average.  However, that doesn't include the numerous occasions when upwards of a minute can be lost, such as a bike passenger needing to get from bike store to board at the end of Coach 'A', or a passenger pulls on the door after the CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking) has been locked, but the door handle stays down and a staff member needs to push it properly shut (if not it will clock open to the secondary catch at the next station which might not be spotted).  And of course there's the old favourite of passengers leaving a door wide open right at the other end of the platform to where the staff are.  Then there's the delay any time a train is despatched with a door on the catch!  All in all, power operated doors (provided they are reliable) make a huge difference.

Acceleration wise, I'd have thought the lower speed ranges will be greatly improved when compared with a HST as well?  After all, a Class 180 will leave a HST for dust at up to around 80mph when they are fairly similar up to 125mph.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Dwell times are reduced because of power operated doors saving as you say 15-20 seconds.  It will be a lot more than that at the unstaffed stations, but as Maidenhead and Slough have despatch staff we'll take that as a good average.  However, that doesn't include the numerous occasions when upwards of a minute can be lost, such as a bike passenger needing to get from bike store to board at the end of Coach 'A', or a passenger pulls on the door after the CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking) has been locked, but the door handle stays down and a staff member needs to push it properly shut (if not it will clock open to the secondary catch at the next station which might not be spotted).  And of course there's the old favourite of passengers leaving a door wide open right at the other end of the platform to where the staff are.  Then there's the delay any time a train is despatched with a door on the catch!  All in all, power operated doors (provided they are reliable) make a huge difference.

Acceleration wise, I'd have thought the lower speed ranges will be greatly improved when compared with a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) as well?  After all, a Class 180 will leave a HST for dust at up to around 80mph when they are fairly similar up to 125mph.

Thank you for the very complete reply - I must admit I was only thinking of staffed stations (my local one being Reading^!). You are of course quite right about the accelerations - I claim a senior moment! 

[Btline]

The fact of the matter is that every stop at Maidenhead and Slough eats up at least one extra path on the fast lines. Even if the total delay of stopping is 3 minutes, that's a complete path lost.

Just look at the West Coast: As the xx20 and xx23 both stop on the fast lines (Milton Keynes and Watford respectively), the next fast line departure is not until xx30. Without these calls you could fit in a xx26 or xx27. At the head of the hour, neither the xx00 nor xx03 stop until branching off the core route, and as such there is a xx07 and xx10.

No HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) should be stopping on the fast lines! It eats paths.

[ChrisB]

And if you want to travel north from those stations, what do you suggest?

Add another hour to the trip by sending them (free?) via London?
Or asking them to travel north on slow London Idland and change further out? Where do you suggest?

Un-thought out posts help nobody and are rapidly getting fellow members to ignore you!

[BerkshireBugsy]

And the morale of the story.... just because your train has gone from platform X for the last 4 days, doesn't mean it will go from the same platform on day 5.
Then these people who don't know how to read a departure board moan and abuse the staff for something which clearly is not the staffs fault.

I totally agree with the above. I have  often seen pax on P7 at reading waiting for a service to x and the said service has been diverted to another platform which normally  means a trek across the over bridge .

Because they have been oblivious to the world they have then boarded the wrong train

I've no sympathy in these cases - if you feel unable to live without you aural satisfaction for a few minutes at least pay attention to the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) displays (which I accept can be problematic in their own ways when services are disrupted)

[Southern Stag]

No HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) should be stopping on the fast lines! It eats paths.

HSTs will have to be first stop Reading West or Swindon then. Won't be able to call at Newport or Cardiff either, they're both on 4-track sections with fast lines.

[John R]

Un-thought out posts help nobody and are rapidly getting fellow members to ignore you!

Particularly when we respond throwing a challenge down (as I did in respect of Hanborough's pax numbers doubling in 7 years when btline asserted that the service was rubbish and passengers were fed up), and we don't get a response.

Here's another one, then.

If the GW^▸ (Great Western) main line needs all 20 three minute paths as far as Reading for non-stop services, where do they all go?

(edited to fix quote - bobm)

[a-driver]

Eight minutes is a slight exaggeration, probably nearer five minutes if it's a stop on a 125mph stretch of line like Maidenhead and Slough.  There's little point tinkering with anything until the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s arrive and the line upgrades are complete in a few years time.  IEP's will reduce station dwell times and improve acceleration which in itself will create extra capacity without all the other improvements being made.

I would say we are stationary at places like Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford for about 2-3 minutes with an HST^▸ (High Speed Train).  If you leave Reading, Paddington bound, on a HST it'll take Maidenhead/Taplow area before you reach 125mph.  125mph on a Cl. 180 is achievable by Twyford when leaving Reading. Given the acceleration and braking curves I would still you're looking at close to 8 minutes for a stop in order to not affect the train behind. 
Power operated doors will obviously decrease the dwell times at stations, even more so if the train was more suitable to commuter work with double leaf doors etc.

The fact remains the line between Reading and Paddington in the peak is VERY tightly timed in order to run it at close to its capacity during the peak.  If the train that calls Twyford, Maidenhead or Slough is just 1 or 2 minutes late that gap on the line is effectively lost and then you start creating knock on delays to following services.  The situation is not helped when you throw 90mph Turbos onto the main and having them cross from relief to main and vice versa at certain locations.  In an ideal world, the Turbos should be confined to the reliefs, the HSTs should keep to the mains and run non-stop. 

[ChrisB]

Indeed, you need to consider lost time from the start of (defensive) braking, through the station stop, until the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/Adelante is back up to 125mph running. And then compare that time to full 125mph running through the station non-stop. This difference could easily be 8minutes-ish

[grahame]

If the GW^▸ (Great Western) main line needs all 20 three minute paths as far as Reading for non-stop services, where do they all go?

4 to/via Bristol
4 via the Berks and Hants
2 to Gloucester
2 to Worcester via Oxford
2 to South Wales
2 only to Reading (or perhaps to Oxford)

Oh hang on - that's only 16 ... and I'm providing some generous services in places

It will be very interesting to see the post-electification pattern.   I'm sure that note will be taken of the comments about the West Coast with a series of trains in a "flight" each stopping successively closer to London, and with the slower acceleration diesels that remain running non-stop.   So a sequence of ten slots
1. Stops at Twyford
2. Stops at Maidenhead
3. Stops at Slough
4. Stops at Hayes and Harlington
5. Stops at Ealing Broadway
6. [lost to stops]
7. [lost to stops]
8. Nonstop
9. Nonstop
10. Nonstop

[John R]

Grahame - I think you've got to 20 if you include the Hex, which occupies 4 paths as far as Airport Jn. But as you say, that's being extremely generous - I can't see 4 needed on the B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury), nor 2 each to Gloucester or Worcester.

Flighting is much easier on the down line. All(!) you need to do is ensure that services get away from Paddington (or Euston, or KX) promptly. It gets much more tricky on the up line, as the likelihood of each service presenting itself at the appropriate point on time is inevitably reduced.