Weather disruption caused in 2014, and how to prevent it happening again - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Umberleigh]

The answer to the sea wall problems are to widen the A303, according to this article in the WMN^» (Warminster - next trains):

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Flooding-crisis-A303-upgrade-fast-tracked/story-20639647-detail/story.html

So we have the money, we just don't want to spend it on the railway. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[stebbo]

Interesting piece on Radio 4 yesterday evening about the storms (From Our Own Correspondent at 5.15pm). As part of it, the presenter tackled a guy from Network Rail about the Oxford problems and asked why if the bridge south of Oxford had been raised for electrification the track hadn't been as well. The Network Rail response was totally evasive but he seemed to say (a) the track would be raised at some point in the future but first (b) they needed to consult with the Environment Agency and get their permission in case raising the track caused flooding nearby - to which the presenter neatly pointed out that the land next to the railway already flooded and that was part of the problem.

Sounds like the Environment Agency are responsible for a lot of the problems in Oxford and Dawlish (a problem birds this time, I believe) and elsewhere. I pass no comment on the other issues to do with the Somerset Levels farmland and the damage to homes.

The Network Rail spokesman didn't cover himself in glory but it seems as if the poor guy was "fighting" with one or both arms tied behind his back.

[grahame]

The answer to the sea wall problems are to widen the A303, according to this article in the WMN^» (Warminster - next trains):

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Flooding-crisis-A303-upgrade-fast-tracked/story-20639647-detail/story.html

So we have the money, we just don't want to spend it on the railway. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Public transport currently offers 16 London to Plymouth road (coach) journeys per day - 4 Megabus and 12 National Express, ranging from 4 hours and 40 minutes to 5 hours and 50 minutes.  And it also offers 16 trains, all run by First Great Western, ranging from 3 hours to 5 hours and 30 minutes.   The difference is that trains are 8 carriages long and have around 8 times the capacity, so that the public road transport is very much in the minority public transport wise. However, the rail industry as I write has failed to run its services to this schedule for several weeks, and will continue to fail to run to this schedule for a number of weeks yet.  The alternative it offers involves a slower journey, and a change of modes to its arch-rival, the road coach.

Purely based on the number of seats provided, there's been a clear (and growing, in recent years) preference on the part of Jo Public to travel by train rather than bus.  The sea wall at Dawlish was already a subject for discussion prior to the breach, so hardly comes "out of the blue", and to some extent the questions needs to be asked "should something have been done before the shit hit the fan" and "can rail provide the robustness that's needed".  Just as a failure to run trains on Boxing day shows how well we can do without a railway, so closure of a main line for a period of weeks ...   <discuss ....>

[Umberleigh]

From Cornwall there are even fewer coaches, just four per day day from Truro - just about half of one HST^▸ (High Speed Train). The times I see a National Express coach departing Truro there are literally a handful of people on board, usually about three or four.

[stebbo]

To any intelligent observer the case to reinstate, or preferably rebuild on another route, the railway seems obvious and one would hope that will be pursued as quickly as possible. I don't see the same disdain for the railways as under Thatcher so one hopes that the road lobby brigade won't take over the political asylum.
Also, railways are far more environmentally friendly than road travel  - and with one hopes increasing electrification - will continue to be so. Of course, electrifying a restored sea wall route doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, widening the A303 doesn't solve the problem of people from the Midlands or the likes of Oxfordshire/Buckinghamshire coming to the south west via the M5 and Bristol.

[johoare]

The situation at Maidenhead this morning was rather confusing to say the least..  The only thing that made any sense was the manual announcements.. The 7.59 departure to Paddington wasn't on the boards at all although it was appearing on the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) departures board online by that point. We were assured it was on the way but at that point they weren't sure which platform. This meant that everyone waiting to board this train (a lot of people, it's an HST^▸ (High Speed Train)) were standing near the top of the stairs which isn't the best (but from experience, you need to be near the stairs for those last minute platform alterations). At about the time it was due to depart, it vanished from the NR departures board on-line and when I went into the details it showed it as having passed Maidenhead.. Fortunately it hadn't.

It did finally arrive about 15 minutes late so not too bad really but could have done without all the conflicting information meanwhile. Maybe tomorrow will be better

[lordgoata]

Having fully prepared myself to work from home again this morning, I checked on here and Journey Check late last night to see everything was due to be running as normal (with regards to my journey at least). Checked first thing this morning when I woke up, and again everything on time. Usual train (3 car turbo) arrived on time (very unusual!), and got to Twyford more or less on time. We had two signal stops between Twyford and Maidenhead, and eventually arrived 10-15 minutes late I think it was. All in all quite painless after last week, so hats off to everyone for reducing that 8-week fix to 2 days!

Hopefully the journey home will be similarly painless.

[TaplowGreen]

To any intelligent observer the case to reinstate, or preferably rebuild on another route, the railway seems obvious and one would hope that will be pursued as quickly as possible. I don't see the same disdain for the railways as under Thatcher so one hopes that the road lobby brigade won't take over the political asylum.
Also, railways are far more environmentally friendly than road travel  - and with one hopes increasing electrification - will continue to be so. Of course, electrifying a restored sea wall route doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, widening the A303 doesn't solve the problem of people from the Midlands or the likes of Oxfordshire/Buckinghamshire coming to the south west via the M5 and Bristol.

I suspect that Dawlish will be fixed for the time being and then everyone will forget about it.....till the next time......really can't see another route being constructed especially with all the money already being wasted on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).....I don't see the Okehampton/Tavistock option being a runner anyway, it would surely cut off the "English Riviera"?

Added to the folly of the closure of Plymouth Airport, which should have been expanded, not closed, this simply serves to illustrate the fragility of transport infrastructure west of Exeter, and puts off inward investors.

[Southern Stag]

The problem, IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), with Plymouth airport was that is had a short runway so could only take smaller aircraft which meant to a certain extent it was always going to be fighting a losing battle. Exeter Airport is relatively close and has a much wider choice of destinations. Even Newquay, which is now the only airport west of Exeter, is struggling with more and more services being withdrawn. If the demand for air travel was that great from the South West you'd think that Newquay would have increasing not decreasing passenger numbers.

[mjones]

....really can't see another route being constructed especially with all the money already being wasted on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).....I don't see the Okehampton/Tavistock option being a runner anyway, it would surely cut off the "English Riviera"?

As has been pointed out by others, the business case for building or re-opening lines in Devon is not improved by scrapping HS2; conversely, going ahead with HS2 does not preclude schemes going ahead in different parts of the country if their business cases stack up.

[stebbo]

I suspect that Dawlish will be fixed for the time being and then everyone will forget about it.....till the next time......really can't see another route being constructed especially with all the money already being wasted on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))..

Well, I'm sure we could spend hours discussing HS2. But for my money, I'd be spending on the existing railway infrastructure - Dawlish avoiding line, more electrification..... And I know not everybody agrees with me.

[mjones]

... the Treasury in particular! 

[TaplowGreen]

....really can't see another route being constructed especially with all the money already being wasted on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).....I don't see the Okehampton/Tavistock option being a runner anyway, it would surely cut off the "English Riviera"?

As has been pointed out by others, the business case for building or re-opening lines in Devon is not improved by scrapping HS2; conversely, going ahead with HS2 does not preclude schemes going ahead in different parts of the country if their business cases stack up.

That's a fair point and I don't disagree with the principle.............but where's the money coming from? The arguments for HS2 simply don't stack up but it seems to have become a sacred cow to the current Government - I think the argument for improving the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) is stronger, especially in view of the alternative travel options to the Westcountry and the desperate need for regeneration in areas such as Plymouth, however I can't see it happening.

Would the idea to be a wholesale relocation inland for the GWML, or would the line along the coast remain and become a branch line to serve the likes of Dawlish/Teignmouth/Newton Abbot etc?

What would be the implications for journey times from London/Plymouth? Quicker/Slower/about the same?

[stebbo]

The current Government are rather stuck with HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) unless they are prepared to eat humble pie (and Cameron's eating enough of that in the wake of the floods and I suspect he and his mate George don't do humble very well).

Apart from Dawlish, I'd use the money on more widespread electrification including Cross-Country routes. On Dawlish itself, I'm persuaded, having looked at other people's posts that the best solution is to go inland from Starcross to Teignmouth following the old GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) solution and leave a single line through Dawlish itself. I can see the heritage attraction in summer - perhaps the steam mob at Kingswear might be interested since they're used to running a "heritage" railway with colour light signals!

[brompton rail]

I don't think HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) comes into any discussions about rail access to Cornwall. Many, and not just the Anti HS2 brigade, ar not convinced of the argument for building a new, fast railway with few intermediate station between London, Birmingham and Leeds / Manchester. I live in Doncaster and by the time you add up journey times from Doncaster to Meadowhall (nominally 20 mins), transfer time between trains (remember the HS2 trains will be about quarter of a mile long) and journey to London the journey time is no faster than a current non-stop train (about 90 mins). Who will pay the premium and where will the extra customers come from ... and do we really want to encourage that number of people to travel to London?

So, improve the existing lines - four tracking / loops for East Coast Main Line (and Midland Main Line) to allow more trains, both non-stopping and calling; improve Cross Country line so that the 100 miles between Doncaster and Birmingham takes less than the current 90 minutes.  To cater for more people travelling around the country, and not just to London, all of the major routes (GW^▸ (Great Western), WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line), ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) and GE) need to be able to accommodate more trains and therefore greater frequency. Wouldn't a 20 minute interval service between Bristol and Birmingham and beyond be more use that HS2

Regarding the Plymouth - Tavistock - Okehampton - Exeter route - it would be slower than Dawlish, and serve  few places (yes, I know it is argued that people could drive to Okehampton from north Cornwall and Devon, but Exeter isn't much further so why bother). Current bus services show demand between Plymouth and Tavystock - 5 buses per hour commercial service, NO demand between Tavystock and Okehampton with 5 buses per day subsidised by Devon CC.

I have read that Network Rail have a legal responsibility to maintain the sea wall at Dawlish (part of the original Act), so it isn't going to be abandoned. An inland diversion at Powderham might be nice but the business case doesn't stack up.

Well thats got that off my chest!