Which ticket to buy, and where to get it

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Which ticket to buy, and where to get it ... is this the elephant in the room, or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

http://www.wellho.net/mouth/4238_A-Question-series-posed-to-Melksham-Tourist-information.html

"Can I buy them [from you] please".
"No. You can book them online for delivery if you give five day's notice, or online to pick up at station but not Melksham with 2 hours notice, or you can usually buy them on the train. If the conductor's not able to sell you them on the train, you can buy them at Swindon when you change."

"You've lost me with all these fares and purchase options. Can you sell me two return tickets for the National Express Coach for London for Saturday the xxth of February, please?". "

I'm putting this discussion out in public - seeking thoughs ...

[rogerw]

I think the main problem here is that there is nowhere in Melksham to buy the tickets.  The Trowbridge TIC^▸ (Tourist Information Centre) sells rail tickets.  Could this be a possibility for the Melksham TIC?

[John R]

I was wondering the same myself, or maybe if not the TIC^▸ (Tourist Information Centre) any another business in Melksham that is open most hours.

Then I looked at the process you have to go through to be allowed to, in exchange for a 3% commission. It involves an up front payment of ^300, potential training costs for your staff, and they look for a minimum of ^25k a year in sales, with a business plan demonstrating how you are going to increase that in subsequent years.

So I can see why a business wouldn't do it lightly, which is a shame, as across the country there must be many locations where having such a facility would boost revenue for the railway.

[John R]

As an aside, I noticed on the FB page a link to brfares for Melksham to London fares. Although certainly comprehensive, I think it would be pretty incomprehensible for occasional users of the railway, or those looking to experience the train for the first time. I didn't understand many of the fare options on there, and you had to page down several pages to get to fares which most travellers are likely to be interested in.

[grahame]

There are plans around to get us away from the silly situation of having to make a train journey to collect an advance ticket from Melksham unless ordered a week in advance. 

I'm familiar with the metrics of the Trowbridge TIC^▸ (Tourist Information Centre), but it's not a model easily duplicated to Melksham - there are issues and special case things.   But there are alternative metrics at play which should provide an alternative solution.   Ticket sales commission has dropped from 9% to 5% to 3% (and credit card charges need to come out of the 3%, I understand) over recent years, and it would be a brave decision for anyone to venture new into that arena without some sort of forward contract which would make their investment - initial equipment, training and support - worthwhile (you'll note I didn't say 'profitable' as it may be a community service, but it can't be a yoke around the neck of the TIC).

Other business / 'open all hours' - ah - now if there was a customer facing business with staff / volunteers bright enough and enthusiastic to learn about tickets, and prepared to adhere to the ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) mandates on informing customers, that could be a good idea.  Alas, at Melksham, there isn't one at the moment.

I agree that posting brfares was a bit naughty - I was making a point and encouraging people to come along to the event this Tuesday.

So - two issues - where to get tickets (watch this space) and which tickets to sell / how to describe them to rail newbies.  Further thoughts on that latter issue especially much appreciated, please!

[Alan Pettitt]

One place that it would seem not to be a good place to attempt to buy a ticket is on the train, I recently alighted at Trowbridge and witnessed a guard/conductor/TM^‡(resolve) turn away a woman from the Melksham bound train as she had not purchased a ticket, and then a man came running over the footbridge and tried to board the train and he was turned away too, for the same reason. Not the best way to keep the passenger numbers up in my humble opinion.

[grahame]

One place that it would seem not to be a good place to attempt to buy a ticket is on the train, I recently alighted at Trowbridge and witnessed a guard/conductor/TM^‡(resolve) turn away a woman from the Melksham bound train as she had not purchased a ticket, and then a man came running over the footbridge and tried to board the train and he was turned away too, for the same reason. Not the best way to keep the passenger numbers up in my humble opinion.

<cynic>
Rules is rules, Alan -
at Westbury, you buy your ticket from the counter or from the ticket vending machine if the counter is closed
at Trowbridge, you buy your ticket from the counter, or at the TIC^▸ (Tourist Information Centre) or on the train if the counter is closed
at Melksham, you buy your ticket on the train
at Chippenham, you buy your ticket front the counter, or from a machine in the booking hall. If the booking hall is closed, you go over the bridge to the north car park and use the ticket vending machine hidden under the bridge there
Swindon is like Westbury, only bigger.
Advance tickets can be collected at Westbury, Chippenham and Swindon, and sometimes it's useful to collect them at Bradford-on-Avon if you're Trowbridge or Melksham based.
</cynic>

Thanks for alerting me to this, Alan.

Trowbridge to Chippenham via Melksham is NOT a penalty fare line, and I would have expected that the conductor, if asked as the passenger joined, would have been happy to sell them a ticket - it shows an intent to pay and I really don't like seeing customers apparently put off this way.  Technically the conductor may have been right, but assuming there aren't other things we don't know (e.g. regular 'try it on' type customers known to staff) the actions don't appear to encourage use, and indeed will have dropped the passenger count for that train by 2 - and who knows how many other future journeys by these people may have been lost?

[John R]

So.... if you are travelling from a penalty fare station, but onto a line which is not a penalty fare line, do you need to buy a ticket before boarding?

This isn't just relevant to the Melksham line. Anyone wishing to travel east of Swindon might need to know this (especially if they hold a ticket for travel west of Swindon), and presumably at numerous other places.

Also, I didn't realise that it's a role of the TM^‡(resolve) to ascertain whether people have a ticket before boarding.  In the case in question, given it is highly unlikely that a Penalty Fare Inspector would travel on a service for which PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s are not applicable over the next part of the journey, why wouldn't he just let them on and then sell them a ticket?  It does sound like a somewhat disproportionate approach, which unfortunately may have lost for good a passenger trying out the service for the first time.

[Brucey]

Failure to purchase a ticket before boarding, even outside Penalty Fare areas, could (and does on a frequent basis with some TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)) result in a Railway Byelaw conviction (maximum penalty ^1000 fine in the Magistrates Court):

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

Unless any one of part (3) is satisfied, then you MUST purchase a ticket before boarding a train.

In addition, if "intent to avoid payment" is shown, a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 conviction could be made.  In this case the convict would receive a criminal record, a fine and up to three months imprisonment for repeat offenders.  Again, some TOCs regularly prosecute under this act.

[Alan Pettitt]

I presume that 18.(3)(iii) quoted above would cover me for the time when at the ticket office one morning the clerk (of unmentioned sex in order to avoid possible embarrassing identification) shouted "You'll have to buy it on the train, I've got the s**ts," and promptly ran 'out the back'!

[John R]

At the risk of digressing slightly, does this bylaw mean that any online gambling whilst on a train (or at a station) is a breach?

8. Unauthorised gambling
No person shall gamble on any part of the railway except lawful gambling on premises authorised by an Operator for that purpose

[johoare]

I'm assuming gambling on whether your train will turn up/be on time/you'll have room to get on etc etc is lawful gambling? (Sorry I couldn't stop myself posting that) 

[grahame]

At the risk of digressing slightly, does this bylaw mean that any online gambling whilst on a train (or at a station) is a breach?

8. Unauthorised gambling
No person shall gamble on any part of the railway except lawful gambling on premises authorised by an Operator for that purpose

Indeed ... and it's one of the few bylaws that applies to staff too

An authorised person acting in the course of his duties shall not be liable for breach of any of the Byelaws numbered 2, 4(2), 6(3) and 6(5), 7, 9, 10, 11(1), 13, 14, 15, 16(6), 17, 18, 19 and 20(1).

I was shocked to learn that my driver doesn't need a ticket - scandal! 

[Chris from Nailsea]

At the risk of digressing slightly, does this bylaw mean that any online gambling whilst on a train (or at a station) is a breach?

8. Unauthorised gambling
No person shall gamble on any part of the railway except lawful gambling on premises authorised by an Operator for that purpose

Indeed ... and it's one of the few bylaws that applies to staff too

And, at the the risk of digressing even further, does it cover the situation where the conductor on a train leaving Melksham station is heard to mutter to themself, "I bet this chap with the beard who is looking for me so that he can buy his ticket on board is grahame, and I also bet that A N Other individual who boarded this train at the opposite end to me and has avoided catching my eye is a potential fare dodger"?