Is this right? Does it really cost 90 pounds more on a Sunday?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Help! .... My schedule for next week

Melksham to Manchester - late Sunday afternoon / early evening
Manchester to Elstree and Borehamwood (London will do) - about 17:30 on Wednesday
Elstree and Borehamwood (London OK) to Melksham, 19:00 train ex Paddington

Flexibiity needed, so not Advanced.

I asked for the lowest fare to make my journey with some flexibility, and National Rail Enquires advised
MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains)-MAN  81.50
MAN-LON 78.70
LON-MKM 27.00
Total - 197.20.

However ... research shows me
WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) - MAN via LON 104.80
and that allows break of journey in London on the return.

When challenged, (and given the example of the 07:04 on Monday to Friday), National Rail confirms that the WSB -MAN ticket is valid via Melksham and cane used on that route on Monday to Saturday, but the via Melksham route is not entered into the system for a Sunday, so I am not allowed to use the WSB-MAN and start along the way on that day of the week.

I've not come across routes that differ on different days of the week ... for sure, some lines have no Sunday service and that excludes them, but this sounds really odd. 

1. National Rail advises that my best option from Melksham for a Sunday start is 197.20, but for off peak on other days of the week I can use the 104.80 ticket.  Is he correct?

2. National Rail advises that the lowest cost flexible way to make my trip staring on the Sunday is the 197.20 fare - would I not be able to do it for 108 pounds by adding a Melksham to Westbury single to the 104.80 ticket and travelling via there (and wouldn't I end up coming back through Melksham as the Berks and Hants has engineering works)

3. National Rail advises that Manchester to London is not valid via the Midland Main line so I can't break my journey at Elstree and Borehamwood on the 104.80 ticket.   Not a huge problem if I can break at Watford or Harrow instead, but is he right?

I really want to travel from Melksham on Sunday and back here on Friday, but can't justify a 90 pound premium over what I would pay from Westbury on the same day, or from Melksham on any other day of the week.

[Trowres]

Strange.

I had no problem in getting the National Rail journey planner to provide a Sunday journey at the ^104.80 fare via Melksham, Paddington and Euston. Break of journey allowed both directions so should be OK to start at Melksham.

A single ticket "via London" was also offered for Manchester-Westbury via Sheffield and  Luton, so that seems to be a permitted route.

[thetrout]

I agree with Trowres. Via Bath Spa is a permitted route for such a journey as is Reading (Have done the same journey myself on a few occasions) So the law of averages dictates that via Melksham is also permitted.

The Manual does show via Bristol Temple Meads and Reading as permitted routes. However no maps show the Melksham Lines. But as Melksham is part of the Westbury Group and is the appropriate routing point. This in my interpretation makes the proposed routes valid.

From my experience however, a Frome - Shrewsbury First Anytime Return I have used on 4 different routes; 3 of them valid and 1 of them not (found out after double checking the manual AFTER I had made the journey) but all 4 routes were accepted without hesitation or question.

[grahame]

Thanks ... following up on you clues, I have found Westbury - Manchester and Manchester - Westbury journeys on the "Off Peak via London" fare routed outward via Melksham and back via Elstree and Borehamwood.   I am therefore of the informed opinion that the WSB^» (Westbury - next trains)-MAN ticket at 104.80 covers my requirement for the week, and that National Rail misinformed me by giving me a 197.20 combination (to which I would have had to added Transport for London fares Euston to Elstree and Elstree to Paddington!); that error was compounded by him telling me that the 104.80 ticket wasn't valid via Melksham on a Sunday, nor via Elstree, both of which statements have been shown to be incorrect by careful use of the on line journey planner, which I understand to now be the routing authority.

Not the most common or simplest of journey requirements - but very much the sort of thing I have to do, as do others, from time to time.  You would hope that the paid professional experts who you phone would be able to get it right, wouldn't you?

[grahame]

So far, so good
...  Melksham, Swindon, Paddington, Euston, Manchester on Sunday
...  Manchester, Sheffield, Leicester, Luton Airport, St Albans, Elstree on Wednesday

Ongoing plan
17:49 Elstree to St Pancras
Tube to Paddington
19:00 to Swindon or Chippenham
20:12 / 20:29 from Swindon or Chippenham to Melksham

BUT ... Elstree to St Pancras closed as I write, overhead cable down at Hendon (?).

Question ... if I get to Elstree station for 17:15 (can't be sure of earlier) and have to use local buses to Edgware tube and then the underground and miss the 19:00,  what do I do when I get to Chippenham?   Logic says that if the 17:49 and other trains on this line fail to run it's a rail industry problem (actually failure of a First Capital Connect to run a train) that the rail industry should get me to destination - but does this apply when I'm picking up from a break of journey and getting off short of the final destination?

Edit to add link:
http://www.borehamwoodtimes.co.uk/news/10945044._/?

[ChrisB]

That's the downside of splitting tickets.

Book your trip from Elstree to home as one ticket & they have to get you home. Split tickets & they only have to get you as far as the end of the ticket you're using at the time. It's then solely your responsibility to get yourself further, with your only recourse a refund on unused tickets (if flexible, loss of money if you subsequently miss a connection onto an ADV ticket.

[JayMac]

I don't think grahame has split tickets, he's just made a two day break of journey at Elstree on the return portion  of a Westbury to Manchester Off Peak Return (Route: ✠VIA LONDON), and wishes to end the resumed return journey short at Melksham.

I'm of the opinion that the rail industry should get grahame to his destination if he's unable to make advertised connections, Elstree - Westbury. However, in my opinion, it's the destination printed on the ticket they should get you to, not where you would like to end short. So on (hypothetical) late arrival at Chippenham, advice would probably be to travel onward by train to Bath and change there for Westbury.

No harm in asking whether they'll taxi you to Melksham as that's where you'd actually like to end your journey. Whether they will or not though is in the lap of the gods. I think they'll decline though.

[grahame]

That's the downside of splitting tickets.

Not sure how splitting tickets applies, Chris?  This is a split journey which in effect is the opposite - one ticket for several journeys. It's an off peak Westbury to Manchester via London return ticket and I've broken my journey on the way back at Elstree and will be breaking it again at Melksham.

Split tickets & they only have to get you as far as the end of the ticket you're using at the time. It's then solely your responsibility to get yourself further ...

You say they'll get me "as far as the end" ... does that mean they'll get me to Westbury, but not to my [next] break at Melksham?

I don't think grahame has split tickets, he's just made a two day break of journey at Elstree on a Westbury to Manchester Off Peak Return (Route: ✠VIA LONDON)

I'm of the opinion that the rail industry should get grahame to his destination if he's unable to make advertised connections, Elstree - Westbury. However, in my opinion, it's the destination printed on the ticket they should get you to, not where you would like to end short. So on (hypothetical) late arrival at Chippenham, advice would probably be to travel onward by train to Bath and change there for Westbury.

No harm in asking whether they'll taxi you to Melksham as that's where you'd actually like to end your journey. Whether they will or not though is in the lap of the gods. I think they'll decline though.

I'm inclined to agree with "lap of gods" ... but then I did save quite a bit using the longer ticket ... and there is the late bus! 

Thanks for taking a look at your encyclopaedic knowledge of these things to check there wasn't a clause I had missed.    Hope I don't have to see what the gods think tonight 

[ChrisB]

Oops, sorry. Misread the thread.

Agree with BNM, right through to the likelihood of being taken to Westbury in this situation. They might put you on a bus calling all stations on your route, but more likely to be using taxis. If there was anyone else for Melksham, you might persuade them to let you share the ride, but otherwise your taxi would be for your destination.

[bobm]

I had an example of that in the early hours of Christmas Eve, when the sleeper from Penzance terminated at Exeter.  The taxi provided was for Reading and Reading only, even though it passed Swindon (my ultimate destination) on the way.....

Ironically when I got to Reading there were no trains to Swindon either.

[grahame]

OK ... general conclusion is that whilst break of journey is allowed, you do it at your own risk and it's not the responsibility of the rail industry to get you to the point at which you wish to break (at home in Melksham for me tonight) but only to the final point on the ticket.   Thanks folks!

[Southern Stag]

That's the downside of splitting tickets.

Book your trip from Elstree to home as one ticket & they have to get you home. Split tickets & they only have to get you as far as the end of the ticket you're using at the time. It's then solely your responsibility to get yourself further, with your only recourse a refund on unused tickets (if flexible, loss of money if you subsequently miss a connection onto an ADV ticket.

That's not correct. The rail industry has the same responsibility towards you whether you use split tickets or not, and that's to get you to your final destination. The only exceptions are in certain circumstances when you're using the Tube and Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) and then an onward train ticket.

[ChrisB]

Don't think you're right there.

There have been cases where someone using two Advance tickets to complete a journey was delayed on the first and not permitted to travel with the second, having missed their train. Different operators.

[Trowres]

In certain places the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) refers specifically to the destination on the ticket; but in other places simply to "your destination station".  There is also the question of what the relevant company's passenger charter says.

Interestingly, on the question of split tickets [not relevant to Grahame's case] this is what the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) charter says regarding compensation:

Combination Tickets: Should you hold a combination of tickets for your journey we will compensate you for the entire journey. Should a combination of tickets be held involving different Train Operating Companies we will either address the compensation ourselves (if the delay was caused by First Great Western) or forward to the company responsible (if not First Great Western).

[Southern Stag]

Don't think you're right there.

There have been cases where someone using two Advance tickets to complete a journey was delayed on the first and not permitted to travel with the second, having missed their train. Different operators.

Well that shouldn't be the case. The Fares Manual is quite explicit on the point.
From the Advance Fares FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions):
Q04 - Can a customer buy two Advance tickets which join together to make one journey, e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel the throughout journey A-C?

A: Yes, provided the train calls at B (NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage), click here)

Note 1: Where a passenger buys multiple Advance tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of ^10 fee.

Note 2: Where separate train companies are used for A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through rail journey in the event of delays (see also Q21 below) provided connections were booked in accordance with the advertised minimum times for stations. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge to Leeds holding a combination of Cambridge ^ Peterborough ^XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) only^ and Peterborough ^ Leeds ^EC only^ is allowed to take the next East Coast service in the event of a delay on the CrossCountry journey causing the connection to be missed.