Are fare rises heading for a rail profit for the government?

[whole diary]

[brompton rail]

But isn't it a bit like the arguments about paying tax anyway .....
..Why should I pay for schools as I have no children...
.. Why should I pay for roads when I don't run a car ...
.. Why should I pay for ......  and so on!

That's the price of living in a civilised (?) society, I think.  Politicians get paid to decide these issues, and give the rest of us the opportunity to criticise them for it.

Returning to rail fares many of the Anytime Fares, especially to London and Birmingham are based on what the market will bear, as there is a heavy demand, and these fares are not the regulated ones.

Your comments about Weekly Season tickets being about 1.5 times the cost of one Anytime Return are reflected in many places, especially on InterCity type routes into London.
Plymouth to Paddington is ^271 SOR and ^489.70 Weekly season ( even cheaper per day if a Monthly Season) for 225 miles.

Comparisons with similar journey lengths from London Terminals do, however, suggest First Great Western fares are about 10% higher than East Coast, but cheaper than Virgin.

[IndustryInsider]

Is it fair that all rail users (regardless of geographical location and income) continue to subsidise unlimited free travel for current and retired rail staff and their families adding up to hundreds of thousands of people?

Clearly a line has to be drawn 

That's an interesting question.  I'm guessing that with companies barring staff from using some of the busiest trains, and despite many thousands of people being eligible, that number is tiny compared with the revenue stream and sheer number of 'ordinary' passengers? 

Of course, many people who work within large organisations get some sort of discount/allowance on the goods/services their employers provide.

So, if say it is fair on balance.  Perhaps I'm biased though?

[JayMac]

I can't think of any company that gives current/retired employees free goods and/or services though.

In the retail sector it is typically just a 10% discount.

[Super Guard]

FYI^▸ (for your information), only staff employed/retired pre-privatisation/1996 retain free travel across the whole rail network - this was agreed between BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) & the Government.  The rest of us "newbies" have to pay a discounted rate for other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) and no discount available on TfL^» (Transport for London - about) services.

I had a chat with a Sky phone rep once, who told me they didn't pay a penny for any Sky product... Is it fair I have to pay Sky so much money in monthly subscriptions to subsidise their free employee's Sky? 

[JayMac]

That discounted rate being 75% off Anytime fares (PRIV), for the employee, their spouse/partner and any resident children. Quite a concession, especially when so many staff know they can be canny and split longer distance journeys into Anytime Day fares. This is in addition to any travel concessions offered by the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or the TOC's owning group. All of whom offer staff travel benefits in addition to PRIV.

I often hear staff complain, "but we only get 75% off Anytime fares". As if this isn't worthwhile. Yet that gives, as an example, a day return journey at any time between Swindon and London for around ^25 (using splits) or ^30 without. Compared with around ^83 for Joe Public using the same splits.

Having a Sky employee in my family (sort of - partner of nephew) I'm told that it's Sky+ HD and Broadband for free. Line rental, calls, sports, movies, on demand etc aren't free. Some are discounted, some aren't. Oh, and Sky isn't an industry that is heavily subsidised by the state.

I don't dispute that rail employees should have staff discounts. I just think the amounts given are very generous compared to other industries.

[TaplowGreen]

FYI^▸ (for your information), only staff employed/retired pre-privatisation/1996 retain free travel across the whole rail network - this was agreed between BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) & the Government.  The rest of us "newbies" have to pay a discounted rate for other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) and no discount available on TfL^» (Transport for London - about) services.

I had a chat with a Sky phone rep once, who told me they didn't pay a penny for any Sky product... Is it fair I have to pay Sky so much money in monthly subscriptions to subsidise their free employee's Sky? 

........last time I looked, SKY wasn't subsidised by the taxpayer, so you're not comparing apples with apples.

[Super Guard]

That discounted rate being 75% off Anytime fares (PRIV), for the employee, their spouse/partner and any resident children. Quite a concession, especially when so many staff know they can be canny and split longer distance journeys into Anytime Day fares. This is in addition to any travel concessions offered by the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or the TOC's owning group. All of whom offer staff travel benefits in addition to PRIV.

I often hear staff complain, "but we only get 75% off Anytime fares". As if this isn't worthwhile. Yet that gives, as an example, a day return journey at any time between Swindon and London for around ^25 (using splits) or ^30 without. Compared with around ^83 for Joe Public using the same splits.

Indeed, however there are many examples where staff have found it's actually cheaper to buy an Advance ticket, than a discounted anytime fare (although some prefer the flexibility the anytime gives them).

75% is very good yes, I was merely pointing out that it isn't "unlimited" free travel for all staff/dependants as was previously claimed.

Also the dependents have to pay full rate for their own commuting, it is only free/discounted leisure travel available to them.

Having a Sky employee in my family (sort of - partner of nephew) I'm told that it's Sky+ HD and Broadband for free. Line rental, calls, sports, movies, on demand etc aren't free. Some are discounted, some aren't. Oh, and Sky isn't an industry that is heavily subsidised by the state.

The phone op said he "gets it all free", so I can only go on what I was told... And the Sky example was more jovial then a serious comparison - well, we could get into a debate about Murdoch's control of the media and his relationships with successive governments, but that's probably off-topic 

Also the comment was "I can't think of any company that gives current/retired employees free goods and/or services though.", and there is an example of sorts.

I don't dispute that rail employees should have staff discounts. I just think the amounts given are very generous compared to other industries.

Indeed, I don't disagree, we are very lucky.  I would be interested to know what actual cost figure the bean counters put on this staff benefit though?  We have no right to a seat if a member of the public is standing, so I guess the additional weight costing fuel might be the extent of it?

Also, just to add, those ex-BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) staff who have full travel concessions I believe actually get taxed on this benefit in some way, so the government makes some money back via taxation.

[JayMac]

75% is very good yes, I was merely pointing out that it isn't "unlimited" free travel for all staff/dependants as was previously claimed.

To be fair to TaplowGreen, he didn't use the word 'all'. Whether the 'protected' current and retired employees and their families add up to 'hundreds of thousands' can't be known for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me if the number is low to mid six digits. The industry was, and still is to some extent, labour intensive. Although I believe post 1996 entrants to Railtrack/Network Rail get very little, if anything, by way of free/discounted travel.

[TaplowGreen]

75% is very good yes, I was merely pointing out that it isn't "unlimited" free travel for all staff/dependants as was previously claimed.

To be fair to TaplowGreen, he didn't use the word 'all'. Whether the 'protected' current and retired employees and their families add up to 'hundreds of thousands' can't be known for certain, but it wouldn't surprise me if the number is low to mid six digits. The industry was, and still is to some extent, labour intensive. Although I believe post 1996 entrants to Railtrack/Network Rail get very little, if anything, by way of free/discounted travel.

.....as at 2011, the figure for those who enjoyed this privilege (free or 75% discount) was 500,000

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/half-a-million-rail-staff-and-families-get-discount-travel-6438182.html

[JayMac]

A better article, quoting sources for the figures, and breaking them down:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/8729312/Half-a-million-rail-workers-enjoy-free-or-discounted-travel.html

[IndustryInsider]

I can't think of any company that gives current/retired employees free goods and/or services though.

In the retail sector it is typically just a 10% discount.

Aren't there some in the travel industry?  Airlines?  Bus companies?

http://www.nationalexpress.jobs/about-us/general-benefits.aspx

[Chris from Nailsea]

In the retail sector it is typically just a 10% discount.

_Cough 15%, in my case.  But certainly not 'free'. 

[Southern Stag]

I can't think of any company that gives current/retired employees free goods and/or services though.

In the retail sector it is typically just a 10% discount.

Aren't there some in the travel industry?  Airlines?  Bus companies?

http://www.nationalexpress.jobs/about-us/general-benefits.aspx

In my experience, it's pretty standard in the bus industry for free staff and family travel to be a benefit.

[TaplowGreen]

BA^» (British Airways - about) used to give their staff very generous discounts on flights, they are still pretty good albeit mostly on a standby basis......best I ever got was a card giving 10-20% off some of our supply chain partners which was great.......if you wanted to buy building materials!!!

Moral seems to be, if you're after pretty good perks, work in the rail/transport sector! Might perhaps explain why those who do are so blas^ about the annual price rises affecting the rest of us! 

[John R]

The difference is where an employer supplies a service where the marginal cost of providing that service can be seen as zero, or very close to it. So an extra passenger on a train costs next to nothing, until such time as the number of those passengers causes the train to be overcrowded (as happened in Wales with free travel for pensioners on the HoW^‡(resolve) Line).

Same could be said of a Sky subscription.

However, for those employed by supermarkets, clearly, the marginal cost of supplying an item is not zero, so the retailer would be making a cash loss on such a perk. There would also be a problem of ensuring that the goods were not then sold on.