Are fare rises heading for a rail profit for the government?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Two views

http://www.anorak.co.uk/380858/money/train-fares-rise-blithering-sutpidity-from-the-campaign-for-better-transport.html/?

and

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/451557/How-ministers-will-make-a-profit-from-soaring-train-fares

[paul7575]

Today's 'story' appears to be based on the same press release in almost every outlet, with exactly the same examples, and the same pretty hopeless and incorrect explanation of which fares are regulated and which aren't.  Just like last year, and probably the year before, they find a particular season price that has just broached the ^5000 mark, and imply it is somehow unusual.   Then in the next paragraph they feign amazement that somewhere else a fare has just reached the ^4000 mark. 

Both 'amazing discoveries' are a racing certainty, and will be reported exactly the same next Jan 2nd.  Yet they never actually seem to mention what a bargain some of these fares are on a pro-rata daily rate basis, especially when compared with the equivalent walk up Anytime fare...

Paul

[ChrisB]

Chiltern's Thomas Abelman tried to draw a comparison with driving the same number of miles.

I think he forgot the obvious Economies of Scale, and the fact that you get to travel with who you choose, and go when you want to.

[TaplowGreen]

Today's 'story' appears to be based on the same press release in almost every outlet, with exactly the same examples, and the same pretty hopeless and incorrect explanation of which fares are regulated and which aren't.  Just like last year, and probably the year before, they find a particular season price that has just broached the ^5000 mark, and imply it is somehow unusual.   Then in the next paragraph they feign amazement that somewhere else a fare has just reached the ^4000 mark. 

Both 'amazing discoveries' are a racing certainty, and will be reported exactly the same next Jan 2nd.  Yet they never actually seem to mention what a bargain some of these fares are on a pro-rata daily rate basis, especially when compared with the equivalent walk up Anytime fare...

Paul

I think if services improved, overcrowding was reduced, capacity increased, people could get a seat, reliability improved, the system was robust enough not to grind to a halt at the slightest sign of falling leaves/cold/warm/wet weather (the current storms excepted), less bustitution etc etc then the fact that we have the highest, and ever climbing fares in Europe may be less of a "story"?

[IndustryInsider]

I think if...overcrowding was reduced, capacity increased, people could get a seat...

Aren't those three wishes effectively the same thing? 

I dream of the day when all London trains from a station like Taplow headed into the city beyond Paddington and are formed by brand new, air-conditioned, electric, 10-carriage trains, complemented by with brand-new, air-conditioned, electric trains of at least 4-carriages forming services to Reading and perhaps beyond. Ask me that question ten years ago as to when that date may have come and I'd have shrugged my shoulders, whereas now it is only a few years away.  Indeed part of the current service fragility at times is due to the enormous amount of work going on to prepare everything for that day.

[Btline]

Railways do not make a profit, they never have and never will. Why are CFBT sprouting such nonsense?
(Yes, some core individual routes which are busy all day everyday probably do. But that is a smokescreen for the enormous cost of running a railway and the fact that these routes need the unprofitable bits to make a profit.)

However, they are a public service and their "cost" should consider social, economic and environmental benefits! But where to set the fare is a difficult one...

Is it unfair that a St Albans commuter pays 25% of his salary to travel to work?
Or is it unfair that a taxpayer from the North East pays higher taxes to subsidise the St Albans ticket price allowing the fat cat banker to live in leafy suburbia?

Clearly a line has to be drawn.

[ellendune]

Railways do not make a profit, they never have and never will. Why are CFBT sprouting such nonsense?
(Yes, some core individual routes which are busy all day everyday probably do. But that is a smokescreen for the enormous cost of running a railway and the fact that these routes need the unprofitable bits to make a profit.)

They must have done before nationalisation at least most of the time.

[IndustryInsider]

Railways do not make a profit, they never have and never will. Why are CFBT sprouting such nonsense?
(Yes, some core individual routes which are busy all day everyday probably do. But that is a smokescreen for the enormous cost of running a railway and the fact that these routes need the unprofitable bits to make a profit.)

However, they are a public service and their "cost" should consider social, economic and environmental benefits! But where to set the fare is a difficult one...

Is it unfair that a St Albans commuter pays 25% of his salary to travel to work?
Or is it unfair that a taxpayer from the North East pays higher taxes to subsidise the St Albans ticket price allowing the fat cat banker to live in leafy suburbia?

Clearly a line has to be drawn.

[Clears throat in surprise] Well said, Btline.   

[John R]

Is it unfair that a St Albans commuter pays 25% of his salary to travel to work?
Or is it unfair that a taxpayer from the North East pays higher taxes to subsidise the St Albans ticket price allowing the fat cat banker to live in leafy suburbia?

Clearly a line has to be drawn.

I'd be surprised if many St Albans fat cat commuters are paying 25% of their salary to travel to work. Even with a travelcard it's ^4,000 a year, so 25% would equate to around ^20k of before tax salary.

[TaplowGreen]

Is it fair that all rail users (regardless of geographical location and income) continue to subsidise unlimited free travel for current and retired rail staff and their families adding up to hundreds of thousands of people?

Clearly a line has to be drawn 

[grahame]

However, they are a public service and their "cost" should consider social, economic and environmental benefits! But where to set the fare is a difficult one...

Is it unfair that a St Albans commuter pays 25% of his salary to travel to work?

Or is it unfair that a taxpayer from the North East pays higher taxes to subsidise the St Albans ticket price allowing the fat cat banker to live in leafy suburbia?

To add data to this north / south discussion, I took a regional day business trip (Swindon - Paddington, peak) in our area and compared it to similar distance journeys going "up country".   In each case I've gone for east / west journeys that are reasonable by rail and of roughly the same distance.   All tickets are for a day round trip, bought on the day for any train, travelling standard class.

London - Swindon 81.3 miles ^121.00
Peterborough - Birmingham New Steet 85.7 miles ^77.50
Liverpool Lime Street - Sheffield 82.7 miles ^50.40 (via Huddersfield), ^43.00 via Stockport, no "any route"
Leeds - Blackpool North 85.6 miles ^47.80
Newcastle - Workington 90.6 miles ^29.90
Edinburgh - Gourock 74.3 miles ^33.80
Inverness - Kyle of Lochalsh 78.6 miles ^36.30

Looking away from the apparent north / south divide out west - away from London

Newport South Wales - Carmathen 76.8 miles ^24.60
Exeter - Truro 87.5 miles ^46.00
Eastbourne - Southampton Central 87.5 miles ^90.00 any permitted, ^36.30 "Clapham Junction not London"

I have NOT gone for any particular journeys based on "that will be a cheap one" - purely by looking for a journey of roughly the same distance each time - distances from AA as the road is the real compentiton.

[brompton rail]

However, Doncaster to Birmingham is ^99 Anytime Return for around 100 miles.

Swindon to Paddington does involve travel by  upto 8 coach HST^▸ (High Speed Train) at speeds of upto 125 mph. Doncaster to Birmingham is by 4 coach Voyager and at upto 125 mph, even if the overall journey time is not very fast (just over 90 minutes for 100 miles).

Most of your east/west journeys are in DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and at low average speeds.

[grahame]

However, Doncaster to Birmingham is ^99 Anytime Return for around 100 miles.

Swindon to Paddington does involve travel by  upto 8 coach HST^▸ (High Speed Train) at speeds of upto 125 mph. Doncaster to Birmingham is by 4 coach Voyager and at upto 125 mph, even if the overall journey time is not very fast (just over 90 minutes for 100 miles).

Most of your east/west journeys are in DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) and at low average speeds.

Perhaps my sample are mostly DMUs (and a Voyager is a DMU too, but an HST is just a DU) - because the faster stuff runs on north - south axes.    Here are some more selected not quite for the same randomess, but because they are predominantly high speed services away from London

Crewe - Lancaster 81.6 miles ^70.00 (interesting, just 111.90 for a week season!)
Newcastle - York 88.9 miles ^58.00
Carlisle - Motherwell 83.6 miles ^53.50

Interestingly, Paddington to Didcot and Didcot to Swindon, 58 + 43, 101 pounds, split ticket, London to Didcot based on dmu?

[JayMac]

Rugby - London 85.7 miles ^128 (intercity) ^69 (interurban)

[grahame]

Thanks for the further thoughts and examples.    I think I'm seeing a pattern that London journeys are mile for mile much more expensive

So, logically, ...

Or is it unfair that a taxpayer from the North East pays higher taxes to subsidise the St Albans ticket price allowing the fat cat banker to live in leafy suburbia?

needs to be answered with the question "And is unfair that the tax payer from St Albans has to pay in taxes so that the rail traveller in the north east can travel at bargain rates well below average on a railway that requires tax subsidy?"