Friday 27th December 2013 in the Thames Valley

[whole diary]

[gpn01]

Where do I start?  Well for me, platform 2 at Maidenhead....which I arrived at 07:00 keen to catch the (then showing on time) 07:09.  Bit cold and breezy this morning and surprised that the waiting room, normally a haven offering a dry (and sometimes warm) sanctuary was closed.  Platform was already busy as it seemed there hadn't been any other trains to London so far this morning (note to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), some of us do work during this 'festive' period).  Made worse by noticing that it was going to be just a 3-car carriage.  Ho hum.  Then the delays began...now due at 07:11, 07:12, 07:14, 07:15 ....and so the delay kept creeping up until the board gave up and said 'DELAYED'.  Wonderful.

Eventually we were told to go to platform 4 and a train chugged in at 07:43.  Hurrah!  We set off over 30 minutes late and full...and off to Slough.

Arrived at Slough and waited, and waited, and waited.  Driver got off.  WE waited.  Driver got back on.  We waited some more.  Driver put his coat on.  Got off train   We were still none the wiser.  A few minutes later announcement was made to say that train was terminating at Slough and everyone should disembark (presume drive had gone to the other end of the train to make announcement instead of telling passengers straight away).  No matter, there's a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) across the footbridge, so off we go...

Now sitting on a HST (yes, there were a few seats!).  And waited. And waited.  And waited.  Still no announcements or information updates.  Gave up, back across footbridge this time to platform 2 where there was another turbo waiting.  Sat on that and noticed that driver had switched cabs and was now at the Oxford bound end.  Good enough he announced that the train was heading off to Maidenhead.....

So back to Maidenhead.  Two hours wasted and zero progress made.

A few points about this experience that FGW management should note:

(1) I realise that sometimes there are delays.  It happens.  There's no excuse for a lack of concrete information though.
(2) If the 07:09 was always going to be delayed then tell passengers at the earliest opportunity.  If I'd had a text (I subscribe to alerts) about over running engineering works then I'd have taken an alternate route (e.g. Chiltern Line to Marylebone).  Please don't claim at 07:00 that everything is rosy when it's obvious that it isn't.
(3) No doubt you will receive compensation from Network Rail for this fiasco (as overrunning engineering works, followed by signalling problems were cited as cause of delays).  You really should figure out how to pass this compensation to the passengers affected.

<Rant off>

[Brucey]

(3) No doubt you will receive compensation from Network Rail for this fiasco (as overrunning engineering works, followed by signalling problems were cited as cause of delays).  You really should figure out how to pass this compensation to the passengers affected.

You are able to claim compensation from First Great Western for delays within the control of the rail industry: http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Compensation

[NickB]

Its rarely (ever??) that simple.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will decline to pay compensation if any train moves between starting station and destination within 2 hrs.

So, if you turn up at Maidenhead at 7am, as long as they get a train to Paddington by 9.30 they really couldn't care less.  Whether or not you could board that train due to overcrowding is irrelevant to them it seems, and the fact that you spent 2hrs going back and forth between Maidenhead and Slough matters not a insy winsy amount.

Fully concur with gpn01 - I wish that FGW would stop hiring mute drivers, it is very frustrating.

[IndustryInsider]

Looks like a right mess to be honest.  Just like when over-running engineering work last year ruined the morning service on the 27th.  Even if they have no idea of the likely delay, there's no excuse for a driver on DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) services (or TM^‡(resolve) on other trains) not to make regular announcements with an apology, an explanation of the reason, and the promise of more information when they know it. 

The training programme for DOO drivers who do the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) services doesn't do a good enough job of teaching drivers how important keeping customers informed by announcements is, and the automatic announcement system (APIS) installed recently means that they are far less used to making announcements, so in some ways that has had a negative impact.  Some drivers are very good, some are terrible.

To be fair, from my experience, engineering possessions don't overrun anywhere near as much as they used to back in the last century, but with more trains and more passengers travelling now, the impact can be very severe.

[bobm]

Interestingly FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are accepting tickets dated 23/24th December for travel today, but SWT^▸ (South West Trains) are not.

For time this morning SWT were allowing FGW Paddington tickets via Waterloo to Reading, wonder if they allowed pre-Christmas tickets?

[gpn01]

(3) No doubt you will receive compensation from Network Rail for this fiasco (as overrunning engineering works, followed by signalling problems were cited as cause of delays).  You really should figure out how to pass this compensation to the passengers affected.

You are able to claim compensation from First Great Western for delays within the control of the rail industry: http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Compensation

As an annual Season Ticket holder the compensation is completely inadequate for the inconvenience caused. I think passenger time 'lost' should be more properly compensated. ^1 per minute would be quite fair.

[NickB]

As an annual season ticket holder too I completely agree, but I'm not sure I'd want to bankrupt FGW^▸ (First Great Western) within a one week period.

Some more moderate proposals in my view would be:
- drop the trigger for a 'delay' from 2hrs to 15mins.  Certainly for Thames Valley services.
- make the annual discount variable rather than fixed at 5% which doesn't incentivise FGW to improve anything.  If only 87% of services turn up on time then make the compensation 13% etc etc.

[TaplowGreen]

Where do I start?  Well for me, platform 2 at Maidenhead....which I arrived at 07:00 keen to catch the (then showing on time) 07:09.  Bit cold and breezy this morning and surprised that the waiting room, normally a haven offering a dry (and sometimes warm) sanctuary was closed.  Platform was already busy as it seemed there hadn't been any other trains to London so far this morning (note to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), some of us do work during this 'festive' period).  Made worse by noticing that it was going to be just a 3-car carriage.  Ho hum.  Then the delays began...now due at 07:11, 07:12, 07:14, 07:15 ....and so the delay kept creeping up until the board gave up and said 'DELAYED'.  Wonderful.

Eventually we were told to go to platform 4 and a train chugged in at 07:43.  Hurrah!  We set off over 30 minutes late and full...and off to Slough.

Arrived at Slough and waited, and waited, and waited.  Driver got off.  WE waited.  Driver got back on.  We waited some more.  Driver put his coat on.  Got off train   We were still none the wiser.  A few minutes later announcement was made to say that train was terminating at Slough and everyone should disembark (presume drive had gone to the other end of the train to make announcement instead of telling passengers straight away).  No matter, there's a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) across the footbridge, so off we go...

Now sitting on a HST (yes, there were a few seats!).  And waited. And waited.  And waited.  Still no announcements or information updates.  Gave up, back across footbridge this time to platform 2 where there was another turbo waiting.  Sat on that and noticed that driver had switched cabs and was now at the Oxford bound end.  Good enough he announced that the train was heading off to Maidenhead.....

So back to Maidenhead.  Two hours wasted and zero progress made.

A few points about this experience that FGW management should note:

(1) I realise that sometimes there are delays.  It happens.  There's no excuse for a lack of concrete information though.
(2) If the 07:09 was always going to be delayed then tell passengers at the earliest opportunity.  If I'd had a text (I subscribe to alerts) about over running engineering works then I'd have taken an alternate route (e.g. Chiltern Line to Marylebone).  Please don't claim at 07:00 that everything is rosy when it's obvious that it isn't.
(3) No doubt you will receive compensation from Network Rail for this fiasco (as overrunning engineering works, followed by signalling problems were cited as cause of delays).  You really should figure out how to pass this compensation to the passengers affected.

<Rant off>

....couldn't agree more, totally shambolic today, almost exactly the same as Dec 27th last year.

[Brucey]

(3) No doubt you will receive compensation from Network Rail for this fiasco (as overrunning engineering works, followed by signalling problems were cited as cause of delays).  You really should figure out how to pass this compensation to the passengers affected.

You are able to claim compensation from First Great Western for delays within the control of the rail industry: http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Compensation

As an annual Season Ticket holder the compensation is completely inadequate for the inconvenience caused.

That is completely true.  Something I have grumbled about myself in the past: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/info/12263_Passenger_Charter_vs_Delay_Repay.html

[Electric train]

As I posted in another thread today was not totally FGW^▸ (First Great Western) fault they did get up and running, its just that overrunning engineering works scuppered their efforts and that of the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) Ops teams

[grahame]

(1) I realise that sometimes there are delays.  It happens.  There's no excuse for a lack of concrete information though.

Concrete information may not be available, may be complex, and it may delay fixing things to spend time keeping people informed. This forum has an issue, for example, and I find myself exploring the problem and not knowing how long it will take ... and at the same time answering anxious users thus delaying identifying the problem and coming up with a "time to fix" estimate. But having said that, a holding message passed to one person not on the critical path for him / her to spread - even if that message is "we're trying to work out how long this will take - we'll give you an update / estimate in 15 minutes" should be possible.

(2) If the 07:09 was always going to be delayed then tell passengers at the earliest opportunity.  If I'd had a text (I subscribe to alerts) about over running engineering works then I'd have taken an alternate route (e.g. Chiltern Line to Marylebone).  Please don't claim at 07:00 that everything is rosy when it's obvious that it isn't.

The electronic systems all around seem over-optiistic and rudimentary at times; have you noticed how in the general run of things a train shows as "on time" but then slips 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes just as it's due?  It's also interesting to see a 75mph train scheduled to arrive 3 minutes being a 125mph train at Chippenham, simply because it left Swindon 3 minutes behind.  I would really expect that next generation software can improve this, but as yet it's significantly inferior to a human brain at times.

(3) No doubt you will receive compensation from Network Rail for this fiasco (as overrunning engineering works, followed by signalling problems were cited as cause of delays).  You really should figure out how to pass this compensation to the passengers affected.

But the whole thing is a money-go-round. Passenger pays TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) who pays NR^» (Network Rail - home page) who compensates TOC who compensates passenger. In extreme cases, maybe go all around the loop, but the admin cost must be huge (did I read about 600 blame attribution staff in the rail industry) and in the end is borne by the passenger. I feel the same disquiet here as when Network Rail are fined for something.  How do they pay? ... cut back the work they do and provide an inferior product to what they could, or charge the TOC more who will charge the passenger more.  Or have I missed something?

[gpn01]

(1) I realise that sometimes there are delays.  It happens.  There's no excuse for a lack of concrete information though.

Concrete information may not be available, may be complex, and it may delay fixing things to spend time keeping people informed. This forum has an issue, for example, and I find myself exploring the problem and not knowing how long it will take ... and at the same time answering anxious users thus delaying identifying the problem and coming up with a "time to fix" estimate. But having said that, a holding message passed to one person not on the critical path for him / her to spread - even if that message is "we're trying to work out how long this will take - we'll give you an update / estimate in 15 minutes" should be possible.

(2) If the 07:09 was always going to be delayed then tell passengers at the earliest opportunity.  If I'd had a text (I subscribe to alerts) about over running engineering works then I'd have taken an alternate route (e.g. Chiltern Line to Marylebone).  Please don't claim at 07:00 that everything is rosy when it's obvious that it isn't.

The electronic systems all around seem over-optiistic and rudimentary at times; have you noticed how in the general run of things a train shows as "on time" but then slips 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes just as it's due?  It's also interesting to see a 75mph train scheduled to arrive 3 minutes being a 125mph train at Chippenham, simply because it left Swindon 3 minutes behind.  I would really expect that next generation software can improve this, but as yet it's significantly inferior to a human brain at times.

(3) No doubt you will receive compensation from Network Rail for this fiasco (as overrunning engineering works, followed by signalling problems were cited as cause of delays).  You really should figure out how to pass this compensation to the passengers affected.

But the whole thing is a money-go-round. Passenger pays TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) who pays NR^» (Network Rail - home page) who compensates TOC who compensates passenger. In extreme cases, maybe go all around the loop, but the admin cost must be huge (did I read about 600 blame attribution staff in the rail industry) and in the end is borne by the passenger. I feel the same disquiet here as when Network Rail are fined for something.  How do they pay? ... cut back the work they do and provide an inferior product to what they could, or charge the TOC more who will charge the passenger more.  Or have I missed something?

I think that many service providers miss the point that the information about their service is as  important as the service itself. We live in a digital age and there's no reason why the quality of information should be inferior to the product.  Simple example being today's problems. Was everything really running to time, with no engineering delays or signalling problems until just after 07:00?

[bobm]

Was everything really running to time, with no engineering delays or signalling problems until just after 07:00?

Bit of a difficult one. I'm not sure what time the engineering work was due to finish, but the first arrival at Paddington wasn't due until 07:09 - an empty HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from Old Oak - and the first departure a Heathrow Express service at 07:25.

Therefore the extent of the problem may not have become apparent until units started to need to be moved at the eastern end of the line.

[TaplowGreen]

"I think that many service providers miss the point that the information about their service is as  important as the service itself. We live in a digital age and there's no reason why the quality of information should be inferior to the product.  Simple example being today's problems. Was everything really running to time, with no engineering delays or signalling problems until just after 07:00?"



That is exactly the point - to a degree people will accept that things "occasionally" go wrong, what makes the problem 100 times worse is when no-one tells them anything - I got to Taplow for the 0750 to Reading yesterday - checked NR^» (Network Rail - home page) website at 0730, all on time.....get to station.....all on time....then all of a sudden it just falls off the screen, no announcement, nothing....after about 10 mins another chap tried the Help point (the ticket office was unstaffed and the waiting room locked, which had not been announced in advance either).....no-one answered the Help point.......after 20 minutes (now about 0810), people started drifting off to get cabs.....then about 0815 the 0750 reappeared on the info screen, showing 25 mins late..........at no point on the journey did the driver attempt to apologise or explain the delay....................so basically there you have it, a lot of very upset people, just because no-one had the courtesy to tell them what was going on.............and its a virtual carbon copy of the first day back after Christmas last year.

At best it's discourtesy, at worst incompetence.

[JayMac]

Moderator note:

With two topics on the forum having the same date in their title I've taken the liberty of renaming this one to reflect the specific area under discussion.

bignosemac