Post electrification rolling stock

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

They did state in modern Railways that up to 4 tram-train vehicles could be coupled up on peak time services to provide extra capacity. Some units can be worked by single units rather than pairs where you may have only enough passengers to fill one unit.

Of course there has been talk over the last few weeks about the Valley lines being given a allocation of refurbished class 319's rather than older class 315's so that these units can remain in service longer. Of course this would depand on whether or not the GW^▸ (Great Western) gets brand new emu's as is supected.

Of course any class 319's sent to south wales would need some refurbishment and improvements to their traction packages to improve acceleration.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Modern Railways recently did an article on teh Cardiff Valley lines which looked at how the class 315 & 319's would compare to tram-trains on the Rhymney - Penarth route and you can see the difference.

From my memory of Manchester Metrolink, trams mean an unacceptably small number of seats. Nobody should be forced to stand for more than arround 5 minutes outside commuting hours in my opinion. Other than that, the ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) man in Modern Railways made a strong case for trams/tram-trains on the core ValleyLines.

If the Manchester trams don't have enough seats it's because they are not long enough or not frequent enough. Many cities in central Europe have five or six section long trams with no apparent shortage of seats off-peak. Except when the schools finish^!

[Network SouthEast]

Porterbrook have of course suggested future uses for the 319 fleet. Because I am nice, here is a link to their class 319 brochure http://www.porterbrook.com/downloads/brochures/319%20Brochure.pdf

Potential ideas include re-gearing for 75mph use, as well a reforming to three car sets.

Those in the south of England may remember that Connex South Central refurbished 7 (I think) class 319s for the "Brighton Express". These had their interiors refurbished to include better 1st class seating, 2+2 Chapman seating in standard as well as the fitment of a bar/trolley area and snug seating. Unfortunately in the name of increased seating, First Capital Connect returned these units to their original interior layout a few years ago. But it shows what can be done.

I know this is a view, which many will disagree with, but I feel the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) days are numbered. We'll see them on heritage lines, charters and maybe some WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) or Scottish vanity project, but that's it. It's time to give the HSTs a dignified retirement. Miles per casualty for HSTs aren't the greatest, and they'll require a lot of work to keep them in service beyond 2020. Operationally, HSTs are also time consuming to prepare for service and mobilise compared to modern stock and fault finding when things do go wrong isn't as straight forward as it is on more modern stock. Don't get me wrong, the HSTs have given good service, but in this crowded railway you have to draw a line somewhere, and I don't think secondary or tertiary routes would help their future.

[grahame]

If the Manchester trams don't have enough seats it's because they are not long enough or not frequent enough. Many cities in central Europe have five or six section long trams with no apparent shortage of seats off-peak. Except when the schools finish^!

Even in Los Angeles (city of the car?) the blue line tram, with a section of street running, was 3 x articulated units - equivalent of a 6 car train - when I was on it the other week; plenty of space unlike the green line which was running with one packed articulated set.   Some of the Manchester trams already run up to 2 x articulated units (4 equivalent), but listening to the locals talk those aren't always on the busiest diagrams.  There are frequency limits in places too, such as the Rochdale line with its single line section past Newton Heath depot.  Add too much to the frequency and you'll get service robustness issues I suspect!

[Southern Stag]

Those in the south of England may remember that Connex South Central refurbished 7 (I think) class 319s for the "Brighton Express". These had their interiors refurbished to include better 1st class seating, 2+2 Chapman seating in standard as well as the fitment of a bar/trolley area and snug seating. Unfortunately in the name of increased seating, First Capital Connect returned these units to their original interior layout a few years ago. But it shows what can be done.

The 319/2s still retain the new interior, albeit with the snug area replaced with standard 3+2 seating. It was never going to be used for its intended purpose on FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) so it made sense to install a standard seating layout there. Unfortunately the 319/2s are starting to show the age of their refurbishments now. The refurbishment they received under FCC was not as comprehensive as that which the 319/3s and 319/4s received so they do feel a little bit run down. The flooring in particular is in need of a replacement. It's definitely a good base for any future refurbishment project though, although I'd hope the next refurbishment is more comprehesive to give the units a much newer feel. The 317 demonstrator which has just been unveiled shows what can be done to completely update the interior.

[Electric train]

The current FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Turbo fleet is 57 units. Some of these will need to be retained for the North Downs line and the shuttles to Bedwyn, so there could be a modest net increase in fleet in the Thames Valley

The wires are being stretched a tad further West than Newbury to remove the need for the shuttle .......... so the jungle drums are saying

[TonyK]

The wires are being stretched a tad further West than Newbury to remove the need for the shuttle .......... so the jungle drums are saying

Do we know how much of a tad that is likely to be?

[JayMac]

Initially, I suspect, it would be to Bedwyn.

[Southern Stag]

Extending to Bedwyn could of course have further Rolling Stock implications. If you don't extend the reversing siding at Bedwyn you'd then need 3-car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) to run the Bedwyn trains. Now I guess 3-car EMUs are entirely possible for the Thames Valley branches, but I'm not sure that you'd want 3-car EMUs working the current London-Bedwyn fast services in the long term.

[TonyK]

I know this is a view, which many will disagree with, but I feel the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) days are numbered.

I don't disagree at all, but I think the number may be a larger one than many think. Until the line to Penzance is electrified, they will remain a useful alternative to the relatively few IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) hybrids that will be available, and I think they will still be running commercial services in 2030. Not all of them, of course, which could mean quite a few spares and less rush to service them.

[Electric train]

The HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s demise will be brought about by the adoption of in-cab signalling systems, ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) / ETRMS etc, by the cost of retro fitting the equipment into 30 to 40 year old power cars, the plan being adopted on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) is for no line side signal so I am not sure how the open access Grand Central will deal with this.  The GW^▸ (Great Western) are not removing line side signals ..... yet

[stuving]

The GW^▸ (Great Western) are not removing line side signals ..... yet

The Western Route Summary Route Plan says:

Western key output 8: all trains ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) fitted/Lineside Signals removed ^ by December 2025

It also says this:

The introduction of ETCS is expected to reduce the equipment requiring trackside attendance for routine maintenance. The full benefits of this will not be realised until the signals are removed in 2026. In the short term, the dual fitment of ETCS alongside ATP^▸ (Automatic Train Protection) will increase the maintenance burden.

Considering the age of the equipment most of it is performing well, with many equipment types (particularly the mechanical signalling infrastructure) still in service long beyond their envisaged service life.

[Electric train]

The GW^▸ (Great Western) are not removing line side signals ..... yet

The Western Route Summary Route Plan says:

Western key output 8: all trains ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) fitted/Lineside Signals removed ^ by December 2025

It also says this:

The introduction of ETCS is expected to reduce the equipment requiring trackside attendance for routine maintenance. The full benefits of this will not be realised until the signals are removed in 2026. In the short term, the dual fitment of ETCS alongside ATP^▸ (Automatic Train Protection) will increase the maintenance burden.

Considering the age of the equipment most of it is performing well, with many equipment types (particularly the mechanical signalling infrastructure) still in service long beyond their envisaged service life.

Exactly .......... this will put the nail in the coffin of class 43's (aka 253 & 254) so the demise of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s will be in just over 10 years which will make them 50 years old which all said and done is a life cycle for railway rolling stock far longer than any other public transport vehicle

[TonyK]

I stand corrected (again).

[4064ReadingAbbey]

The GW^▸ (Great Western) are not removing line side signals ..... yet

The Western Route Summary Route Plan says:

Western key output 8: all trains ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) fitted/Lineside Signals removed ^ by December 2025

It also says this:

The introduction of ETCS is expected to reduce the equipment requiring trackside attendance for routine maintenance. The full benefits of this will not be realised until the signals are removed in 2026. In the short term, the dual fitment of ETCS alongside ATP^▸ (Automatic Train Protection) will increase the maintenance burden.

Considering the age of the equipment most of it is performing well, with many equipment types (particularly the mechanical signalling infrastructure) still in service long beyond their envisaged service life.

Exactly .......... this will put the nail in the coffin of class 43's (aka 253 & 254) so the demise of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s will be in just over 10 years which will make them 50 years old which all said and done is a life cycle for railway rolling stock far longer than any other public transport vehicle

I am not convinced that all these dates will be kept, certainly for the outer reaches of the GW network. Network Rail's 'Strategic Business Plan' (which is its response to the Government's HLOS^▸ (High Level Output Specification)) is a work in progress and its final version will be published in March 2014. Even in the current version (from which the above quotes were taken) there are some inconsistencies and assumptions which are made. One of these is on page 58 of the Western Route Plan referring to ETCS

Each framework contractor is required to demonstrate their system functionality at Hertford National Integration Facility (HNIF) in 2013. ETCS programme has access to the facility between March and December 2013 and an intense trial period for each contractor to demonstrate that their system works.

As I understand it, this programme is running late and these comparative studies have not yet been completed so the appointment of a main contractor, planned for January 2014, looks unlikely. This has to increase the risk that the first implementation of ETCS on the Western (for Crossrail to Heathrow) in December 2016 (in the text and diagram on page 58) will be delayed.

Another statement which I don't entirely understand is on page 74

The main lines from Paddington to Bristol are fully fitted with ATP. There is intermittent fitment on the Berks and Hants line. ATP will be replaced by ETCS but will be maintained until fitted trains are all withdrawn (2020/2021), subject to the challenges of obsolescence support.

This implies, at least to me, that all HSTs and Class 180s will be withdrawn by that date - or at least will not be able to operate via Bristol. This seems odd as (a) not enough IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/Super Express Trains have been ordered to operate the service to Plymouth and Penzance and (b) AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) there are questions as to whether the bi-mode versions can cope with the Devon banks on a regular basis.

Whilst I agree that the end-of-life of the HSTs cannot be put off for ever, it would be a brave man who did not hedge his bets that all the planned improvements and changes will happen as planned now. I would think that at least a 'strategic reserve' of overhauled and updated HSTs will still be running in 12 to 15 years time - and their leasing costs are much lower than those of the IEP will be^!

Edited to try to get the quoting correct...