Virginia Water to Westbury - No returns?

[whole diary]

[Trowres]

I am trying to plan a journey from Virginia Water to Westbury, outward on Friday 15th November and returning on 17th. Simple change at Reading, or various options via Salisbury / Woking. Could it be that difficult?

National Rail site provides times with a simple change at Reading in bothdirections, but says that "No return fares available".

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site (Mixing Deck) lists several return fares, including:
Super-off-peak return SSR ^59.50 This is the "any permitted" including via London. BUT...
On the Sunday, it is allowed (according to Mixing Deck) on the 16:46 from WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) via Woking and several later services that way. However it is supposedly not allowed on the services via Reading that are listed.

There is also a:
Super-off-peak return at  ^42.50 ("not London"). This is shown as "not available for any of the return services" although they don't involve London. 

I wondered if this had anything to do with the services being diverted via Melksham on the Sunday. Any suggestions on what to do?

[grahame]

I suspect the 42.50 is valid on Sunday ...

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=VIR&dest=WSB^» (Westbury - next trains)&rte=700&tkt=SSR

Just ask the friendly chap (or chapess) in your local booking office or agent ;-)

[Southern Stag]

I think I understand why it is limiting your options via Reading on Sunday. The trains are all diverted via Swindon, and there is no mapped route Westbury-Swindon-Reading-Ascot, Ascot being the appropriate routing point for this route. This is obviously not going to be questioned however with all the trains diverting that way. Bizarrely there is also a mapped route via Swindon if you use Weybridge as the routing point. (Ascot, Staines and Weybridge all pass the fare check rule and thus are all appropriate routing points.) But to travel via Swindon you should go Westbury-Swindon-Reading-Farnborough North, then I presume you are meant to walk to Ash Vale, thence Woking-Weybridge-Virginia Water. That's clearly absurd, you're never going to be forced to go that route.

What I'm less sure about is why the booking engine is limiting journeys via Salisbury to tickets routed Any Permitted, when the cheaper Not Via London tickets should be valid. The only thing I can think of is that there is an easement which I haven't found. The reason the options via Salisbury are limited on Sunday even for Any Permitted tickets are that services normally booked to run direct Woking-Clapham Junction are being diverted via Staines, and the booking engine suggests you take one of these services to Staines, then doubling back to Virginia Water. Such a journey isn't valid on any ticket though because you are doubling back, it's suggesting an itinerary for which there can be no valid tickets.

[Trowres]

Thanks for your interpretations and explanations. The ^42.50 ticket was successfully purchased.

While testing out what was causing the restrictions, I noticed another oddity.
VIR to WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) or TRO^» (Trowbridge - next trains) is a non-reversible ticket. Although the fares are the same each way, the restriction codes are different.
For a VIR-TRO return, the code is YU which, on a weekday, allows travel on trains departing TRO at or later than 09:30 ... except that the journey planners don't permit using the 09:39 train from TRO. Why not? I'm wondering if it is because it connects with the 10:01 from WSB to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains); from WSB the first time allowed by code YU is 10:03 (why 10:03???). Is this how it's supposed to work? - i.e. you have to check the restriction time for every new train you board? 

[Trowres]

I've just partially answered my own questions.

Virginia Water - Stroud, returning Monday, the 09:52 from Stroud is not valid with a SSR ticket even though the YU restriction code says after 09:30 for Stroud, because the connection at Swindon departs 10:29 and the Swindon restriction is removed at 09:30. Forcing use of a later train at SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) by using the "allow extra time to change trains" causes the journey planner to allow  a journey starting with the 09:52 Stroud.

[thetrout]

What I'm less sure about is why the booking engine is limiting journeys via Salisbury to tickets routed Any Permitted, when the cheaper Not Via London tickets should be valid. The only thing I can think of is that there is an easement which I haven't found. The reason the options via Salisbury are limited on Sunday even for Any Permitted tickets are that services normally booked to run direct Woking-Clapham Junction are being diverted via Staines, and the booking engine suggests you take one of these services to Staines, then doubling back to Virginia Water. Such a journey isn't valid on any ticket though because you are doubling back, it's suggesting an itinerary for which there can be no valid tickets.

Sorry to bring up an old thread here. But I have a few queries to raise.

With the doubling back issue, wouldn't the "Through Train" rule be applicable? If we go back to my thread about Exeter St Davids Tickets to Bristol Stations being valid via Westbury. I listed one example of an XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Service which was diverted via Westbury but didn't call there as showing as valid. Despite tickets not being valid via Westbury, the Journey Planner allowed it because of the "Through Train" rule.


So now we take engineering works between Westbury and Reading via Newbury as an example. There are tickets from Westbury Group that are valid via route: "NEWBURY" Does this mean then if the NBY^» (Newbury - next trains) Route is closed and services are diverted via Melksham that I will be expected to purchase an "ANY PERMITTED" routed ticket? Even if the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) cannot provide the normal service due to their "Supplier" closing the route?!

Also, in Trowres' example, He wants a ticket that ordinary is not valid via Swindon using Ascot as the routing point. Should the through train rule apply here too? Lets face it. If a train went from Westbury - Trowbridge via Reading, Swindon and Melksham. Then my WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) - TRO^» (Trowbridge - next trains) ticket would be valid on that train via those points because of the through train rule. Despite that being an absurd route to take.


On the flip side, this also creates the anomaly when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) divert to Waterloo from Westbury, of Route: "WMN^» (Warminster - next trains)-SAL" tickets being valid on those trains, yet at a fraction of the usual fare as these tickets are normally for SWT^▸ (South West Trains) Services. But for the extended journey time to Waterloo I think to add a restriction to those tickets being used on FGW Services would be unreasonable.

it's suggesting an itinerary for which there can be no valid tickets.

Not the first time it's done that to people and I doubt it it will not be the last. With the supposive new ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) rule of checking the journey planner against the routing guide; this is a prime example of why such a request is completely ridiculous.

Because that then opens the door to: "Journey Planner says I can go Kings Cross - Finsbury Park via Elgin and your rule states I must use the journey planner to check validity and computer said yes, so it's valid!"

It is situations like this where I honestly believe you just cannot win no matter what move you make. Rules contradicting each other. New restrictions imposed when earlier legislation makes those new rules unenforceable.

It's no wonder the staff have a hard time with ticket validity let alone the passengers. Infact, I had a rail staff member ask me (a passenger) if I knew of any loopholes for a particular journey they wanted to make...! Can't give a better example of the appalling state of the fares manual if something like that happens.

</sigh>

</rant over>

</orders more coffee>

[Southern Stag]

The through train rule only applies to a through train from the origin on your ticket to the destination on your ticket. So yes, a Virginia Water-Westbury ticket would be valid via the World on a through train, doubling back as much as you like. But once you have to change, as is inevitable on a journey from Virginia Water to Westbury tickets you are limited to the shortest route and routes not more than 3 miles longer, and mapped routes, possibly verified by the National Rail journey planner. Unless there is an easement allowing it, you couldn't double back between Virginia Water and Staines, and theoretically you can't travel Virginia Water-Reading-Swindon-Westbury. Often for long term engineering works there will be easements which allow travel via alternative routes, and in practice tickets will be accepted on diverted services anyway. I'd say that tickets via Newbury can't be used via Swindon when the route via Newbury is closed. The normal suggest it isn't valid and I can't find an easement which would allow travel that way I either. I agree it is rather unfair, since because of the way the rail replacement buses are organised it is impossible to travel via Newbury.

[JayMac]

I'd say that tickets via Newbury can't be used via Swindon when the route via Newbury is closed. The normal suggest it isn't valid and I can't find an easement which would allow travel that way I either. I agree it is rather unfair, since because of the way the rail replacement buses are organised it is impossible to travel via Newbury.

However, if you've purchased a 'Via Newbury' ticket unaware that the route will be closed on your chosen day of travel then, I believe, under the terms of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Train Operating Companies have a duty to get you to your destination at no additional cost to yourself. In practicality that will mean allowing travel by an alternative route, regardless if it is usually more expensive to travel by that alternate route.

[grahame]

I suspect the 42.50 is valid on Sunday ...

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=VIR&dest=WSB^» (Westbury - next trains)&rte=700&tkt=SSR

Just ask the friendly chap (or chapess) in your local booking office or agent ;-)

brfares web site appears to have lapsed ... any idea if this is a glitch or if I should start using something else?

[bobm]

No inside knowledge but it was only recently updated with the new fare data so would be surprising if it was intentional.

The sister site brtimes.com is still up but I cannot see any mention of the fares site on it.

[JayMac]

GoDaddy placeholder usually means the hosting fee hasn't been paid. I suspect it'll be back soon.

[Trowres]

Working at 22:57 

[JayMac]

Whois shows domain was renewed for another year today. Probably just a bit of system/server/DNS^▸ (Domain name service) catch-up going on after 50p was put in the meter.