Restriction on pre-announcement boarding at Paddington

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

There are no further paths in the peak. Adding coaches to lengthen trains isn't possible. Only doubling up turbos currently available, but there are no extras available.

So what could FGW^▸ (First Great Western) currently do, folks?

[broadgage]

There are no further paths in the peak. Adding coaches to lengthen trains isn't possible. Only doubling up turbos currently available, but there are no extras available.

So what could FGW^▸ (First Great Western) currently do, folks?

One might hope that they would lease more rolling stock.
Although it is sometimes claimed that none is available, one does hear of stock being returned to the leasing company and stored, because no one wants it.

Or they could presumably lease loco hauled coaches ? Even a single suitably long set of coaches could help if used instead of a short and grossly overcrowded DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). that would not only prevent overcrowding on the service run by the LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock), but would free up a DMU or two to lengthen other services.


It is often claimed that this would be uneconomic, due to the leasing costs, and yet the new trains will presumably cost more when they arrive.

If FGW can not afford to lease old stock now, then how are they going to pay the presumably higher costs of the new trains ?

[grahame]

It is often claimed that this would be uneconomic, due to the leasing costs, and yet the new trains will presumably cost more when they arrive.

Trains have been extended from 2 + 7 up to 2 + 8, so FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have indeed added stock, but consider too:

a) Each diagram probably has overcrowding for only 30 minutes in 24 hours on average

b) Adding an extra coach costs lots of ^ - will it generate that much more business, or simply let people spread out a bit during that 30 minutes? I note that money was paid to FGW to do the lengthening, which gives us a clue.

c) Adding a peak diagram with stock with a different top speed / acceleration profile (even if it's a longer train) will probably take up multiple paths.

The ultimate current logic is (in theory) to take all trains up to same-type or same-profile, maximum length services on the main and slow relief lines. That's going to be 2 + 8 HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and paired (10 car) Adelantes on the main, and 165 / 166 units on the relief. Outward of Airport Junction, the last train before each Heathrow service to make an extra stop   or two before it gets to Reading, thus providing the Slough / Maidenhead / Twyford expresses. Grand theory, and yet I expect pretty much the way it's being done save for train length.

So where could the extra carriages come from, IF it were economically or politically mandated?   Consider we're looking for a shortish term solution as electric trains will cause a rethink.   You could cascade - use LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) on Cardiff - Taunton as has been done before, use the saved 15x units on branches such as Windsor, Marlow and Henley, and on Oxford - Banbury and Reading - Newbury stoppers, freeing up 16x units to lengthen shorten trains, and to fill the two diagrams vacated by joining up the Adelantes into pairs.

I'm being an amateur, armchair designer here and I can hear cries of "yes, but" going up, some of which may be show stoppers.  For example, a longer train takes longer to pass over speed restrictions so may be slower, and if we put 15x units on the branches, do we end up ending through trains?   Paddington to Marlow - would change at Maidenhead and change at Bourne End too be acceptable?  I have no answers, but perhaps I'm providing some clues as to the complexities that the experts face in what might at first look like a good solution.

[John R]

a) Each diagram probably has overcrowding for only 30 minutes in 24 hours on average

I'd argue with that iro the HSS^▸ (High Speed Services). Some services from Bristol to London are overcrowded much the way from Bristol TM^‡(resolve) to London with several different traffic flows. Therefore some diagrams could be overcrowded for as much as 3 hours in an 18 hour working day. However, on average across the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet the proportion overcrowded during the day will be lower. So a solution that increases capacity on all HST sets is unlikely to be an optimal answer.

[ChrisB]

Those xtra coaches in the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets actually came frim a basterdised HST, so effectively cut the number if those....

[lbraine]

Extra coaches would be nice, but someone has to pay - and as stated, they do in turn present operational problems.

How about this ?

For the 3 to 4 hours of the rush hour into London per day FGW^▸ (First Great Western) runs itself to represent exactly what it is - a London metro commuter operator. It's 25 mins from Paddington to Reading on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train). That's the same time (almost) for SWT^▸ (South West Trains) doing a Waterloo to Wimbledon run.

What's the difference in the way this journey time is operated (apart from the stock used) ...... SWT have no First Class. The entire capacity is available for passengers - rather than the 2/3rds on a FGW HST.

Thus my proposal is : suspend First Class in all inbound London trains during the rush hour and like wise in the evening for outbound.

Imagine what having ALL the seats on a HST being available will do for the quality of the service we receive.

[JayMac]

And for all those longer distance passengers who have paid for a 1st Class ticket to/from Paddington? Do they forthwith have to be sold a ticket only to/from Reading in future should they arrive/depart in the peaks? How do they access the 1st Class Lounge at Paddington if they only have 1st Class eligibility to/from Reading.

Massive revenue implications and operationally impossible I'd say. Lose that 1st Class revenue and it has to picked up by Standard Class passengers.
 
And people pay for a 1st Class fare for reasons. Extra space to work. The extra comfort and and a far greater chance of getting a seat.

Not to forget 1st Class fares effectively subsidise those in Standard Class.

[John R]

..... SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have no First Class. The entire capacity is available for passengers - rather than the 2/3rds on a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

Thus my proposal is : suspend First Class in all inbound London trains during the rush hour and like wise in the evening for outbound.

Imagine what having ALL the seats on a HST being available will do for the quality of the service we receive.

SWT do have first class on all but their inner suburban stock, so I'm not sure why you say they don't. Even the SWT service to Reading has 1st.

Besides, unless you change the configuration of the stock, you don't actually have any additional seats, and in the rush hour first class is reasonably full. So the actual number of additional seats you would make available to passengers on the train would be very small, at the expense of seriously p**sing first class passengers off who could easily have paid between ^200 and ^300 for their return ticket (^307 from Bristol), and would find themselves unable to get a seat at Paddington.

Question - who is more deserving of a seat between Paddington and Reading? A commuter paying an average of ^17.86 per journey -   49.6p per mile (source - National Rail season ticket calculator, based on an annual return), or the ^309 fare which is around ^1.25 per mile.

[ellendune]

Question - who is more deserving of a seat between Paddington and Reading? A commuter paying an average of ^17.86 per journey -   49.6p per mile (source - National Rail season ticket calculator, based on an annual return), or the ^309 fare which is around ^1.25 per mile.

I could ask the same question regarding season ticket holders from Swindon to Paddington ^17.73 per journey (23 p per mile) and Full standard class fare paying passengers at ^58.50 per journey (76 p per mile)

[JayMac]

Everyone holding a walk-up or season ticket fare is equally entitled to any available seat, relevant to the class of travel on their ticket, regardless of the fare paid.

If you want to (almost) guarantee a seat on longer distance/bookable services you need to make a seat reservation.

[ellendune]

Everyone holding a walk-up or season ticket fare is equally entitled to any available seat, relevant to the class of travel on their ticket, regardless of the fare paid.

If you want to (almost) guarantee a seat on longer distance/bookable services you need to make a seat reservation.

What you say is absolutely correct. I do question why season tickets get such a discount when there is a shortage of seats.  This seems to be contrary to normal market pricing. After all I don'e expect any other form of discount ticket (saver or super saver as was) in the peak.

[broadgage]

And for all those longer distance passengers who have paid for a 1st Class ticket to/from Paddington? Do they forthwith have to be sold a ticket only to/from Reading in future should they arrive/depart in the peaks? How do they access the 1st Class Lounge at Paddington if they only have 1st Class eligibility to/from Reading.

Massive revenue implications and operationally impossible I'd say. Lose that 1st Class revenue and it has to picked up by Standard Class passengers.
 
And people pay for a 1st Class fare for reasons. Extra space to work. The extra comfort and and a far greater chance of getting a seat.

Not to forget 1st Class fares effectively subsidise those in Standard Class.

Yes, and anyway SWT^▸ (South West Trains) DO have first class on longer distance services including those with a first stop near London.
What we need is longer trains, not tinkering.

[grahame]

What you say is absolutely correct. I do question why season tickets get such a discount when there is a shortage of seats.  This seems to be contrary to normal market pricing. After all I don'e expect any other form of discount ticket (saver or super saver as was) in the peak.

We're going way off topic ... however ... one of the fascinating things is just how much season tickets cost in relation to standard tickets for a single day

Chippenham to London - 243 for a 7 day season, 152 for 1 day. So a season is just 1.6 times a daily peak fare.
Sevenoaks to London - 77.70 for a 7 day season, 20.70 for 1 say. So a season is 3.8 times a daily peak fare.

[Fourbee]

Just to take it even more OT -

Woking to Basingstoke - 79.10 for a 7 day season, 10.70 for 1 day. So a season is effectively 7.39 times a daily peak fare in that direction.

Obviously this is down to the fact the season is bi-directional and the daily fare is priced to encourage use of the capacity coming down from London in the morning and up in the evening (the daily fare the other way round is 21.10).

Wont do much to reduce queues at TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or ticket offices though.

[ChrisB]

There is, however, an argument to be made around complete removal of 1st class from turbo stock - and even more of a case from the 165xxx version.