Restriction on pre-announcement boarding at Paddington

[whole diary]

[NickB]

Especially as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) doesn't even recognise 1st on Turbo's as being a 1st Class service (no guarantee of a seat unlike HST^▸ (High Speed Train), no paper, no coffee, no legroom)

[broadgage]

Especially as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) doesn't even recognise 1st on Turbo's as being a 1st Class service (no guarantee of a seat unlike HST^▸ (High Speed Train), no paper, no coffee, no legroom)

I do not think that a seat is actually guaranteed on an HST with a first class ticket, though I grant that one virtually allways gets one.
I travell frequently in First on HSTs and only recall failing to get a seat just once.

I agree that so called first class on Turbos is inferior, and might not be worth providing ? how well used is it ?

[stuving]

If you were wondering how the fares "structure" here compares with other countries, there's a recent study done for ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) and Passenger Focus on just that subject:
http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/research/publications/comparison-of-international-rail-fares-and-ticketing-report-for-atoc-and-passenger-focus-february-2013

One point it shows is that the extra cost of 1st class is much higher here (26p/km average) than anywhere else - average standard class fares per km are high, and the ratio 1st:standard is one of the highest too.  I'm not 100% convinced about some aspects, in part because ours is not the only fares system that's far too complex to summarise simply. And their notion of a "regional journey" is odd: they picked Bourges (near the middle) to Vannes (top-left corner) as an example in France - I'd call that inter-regional. Maybe that's why they found the highest "regional" fare per km was in France.

But there's loads of other useful stuff in there too, which should help to answer questions such as "are these fares crazy, or are railways naturally like that?"

Of course you need to be aware of who did the study, just in case it affected their work. MVA are a transport consultancy involved (among other things) in HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), and owned by Systra, hence by SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) and RATP.

[ChrisB]

1st Class in Euroland is usually a fixed multiple of the Tourist or Standard fare in each country.

It *used* to be the same here, not many moons ago - certainly under BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)).

[NickB]

I do not think that a seat is actually guaranteed on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) with a first class ticket, though I grant that one virtually allways gets one.
I travell frequently in First on HSTs and only recall failing to get a seat just once.

I agree that so called first class on Turbos is inferior, and might not be worth providing ? how well used is it ?
[/quote]

If you travel on an HST with a First Class ticket, and fail to get a seat, you can get a refund from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for the difference between Standard and First.  FGW will not allow the same for Turbos.

[didcotdean]

Back 'in the day' a First Class ticket used to in general cost a simple 50% more. You didn't expect this fare to include papers, drinks, or any food let alone a three course meal, just a bit bigger and maybe more comfortable seat and space. Just what you get in the turbo 1st class area in fact.

Today for example an off-peak day return between Didcot and Reading is an additional 234% in first class compared with standard, for a 15-25 minute journey. Oddly the premium is slightly less in peak time, a mere 212%. On seasons it is actually not that far from the old days at 85% (why?). Put the off-peak return back to the old 50% (ie ^8.70 rather than ^19.40) and the first class seats on the turbo would in my opinion start to be utilised rather than being empty, with a greater fare revenue than declassification.

This enormous price gap didn't happen immediately with privatisation, but has accelerated in the last 10 years.

Of course the real problem with the turbos is that not nearly enough units were bought. ISTR^▸ (I seem to recall/remember) that usage of the local services jumped by over 10% immediately they replaced the previous units, followed by the general rise in rail travel thereafter. Now everything is a management of insufficient capacity.

[lbraine]

Such a lot to reply to !

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) do have first class on all but their inner suburban stock, so I'm not sure why you say they don't. Even the SWT service to Reading has 1st.

My point was to Wimbledon - operated by inner suburban EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) - that have no first class (and no toilet). Do not equate the 2 hour SWT rambling to Reading on Junipers with the 20 minute commute to Wimbledon.

Not to forget 1st Class fares effectively subsidise those in Standard Class.

Do not believe this myth ! Per passenger mile operated the 1st Class ticket is more valuable to the operator - but the bulk of the operational cost is well covered by a well loaded (65%+ plus) standard class train.


Don't get my wrong, as an occasional (3 to 4 times a year) use of First Class it is a great treat and actually 'makes the day' when I am able to take it. But I am also an adhoc user from the Thames Valley to London (1 or 2 times a week) and pay ^48 for the privilege of standing !

I appreciate, as I am sure most people on the forum do, the wonderful heritage of the Great Western Railway, an the idea of being the first UK^▸ (United Kingdom) operator not to operate a First Class service for part of the day is heresay - but as any smart businessman will tell you - when you have an asset the trick to making it work profitably is to maximise the utilisation. Be it a bus, a taxi, an airplane or ... a train. This cannot be said of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) First Class for many many hours of the day.

The question is - are we operating a First Class service on the railways in the UK today as a luxury/prestige indulgence to historical pride , or instead, do we want our railways to provide a greater (more equitable) Standard Class service for the commuter.

Some, yes some, HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) depart Paddington in the rush hour looking pretty well loaded. Most don't. Most leave with 1 or 2 seats occupied in a row of 6. And on the 180's the First Class coach is normally always mostly empty.

But are we to suffer the status quo (which wont be - the growth of the railway usage means increasingly overcrowded trains and the real liklihood of passengers left standing at stations due to services being 'Full and Standing') or do we look at all options (however unpalettable) to solve the capacity issues that are here today.

To not is just rank foolishness - and is putting pride before the fall !

IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

[ChrisB]

You need to postpone this until the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) stock comes in. NO way on earth you'll persuade anyone to make adjustments to the current stock above & beyond the changes already in progress - which in itself, makes your suggestions almost redundant in that the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are moving to only having 2 coaches of 1st class with either a full coach or half-coach being converted.

Once this project is complete, then would be the time to monitor 1st Class. If there's still a full empty-equivalent coach of 1st class in the peak, your suggestion might stand up. But I suspect it won't - and yes, I do think there is still a market for 1st class, certainly in the peaks.

But with the advent of the IEPs and replacement of the turbos on lines into PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains), it's rather a redundant discussion, methinks.

[BandHcommuter]

I think I read somewhere (maybe on this forum) that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are planning to reduce the amount of first class provision on Intercity 125 trains, and increase standard. Although there are no doubt some trains where first class is very busy, my occasional experience of upgrading to first class on peak trains to/from Paddington is that there is a lot of spare capacity, which might be better deployed for standard ticket holders. As an example, a few weeks ago I travelled on the previously-mentioned 1806 from Paddington in first class. I would estimate that it was half-full leaving Paddington, and less than a quarter full leaving Reading. If one of the two first-class coaches were classified as standard, then there would be seating opportunities for the many people who have no choice but to stand in standard.

The problem for FGW is that they have to try and balance the needs of multiple markets within the constraints of fixed formation trains, and it must be really difficult to get the balance right such that capacity is used effectively and profitably.

As an aside, talking to a member of traincrew recently, I understand that first class ticket sales have suffered significantly from changes to travel policies in the public sector, where first-class travel by senior managers was once commonplace, and is now a rarity. I can see the rationale for reviewing how capacity is used on these trains.

[ChrisB]

Which I believe the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) is doing - starting with FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s reduction of 1st class ongoing in both HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) & turbos.

[NickB]

As we've strayed into the 'removal of a first class carriage' debate I think it is worth contributing that not everyone in First Class does so just to get legroom and a paper.  I upgraded to First when I had a bad back and couldn't stand for the 20min journey from Maidenhead to Paddington - it was the only way to get a seat.

I know of several others who do exactly the same for the same reasons.

What I'm saying is that for some the extra cost of a First Class ticket is essential, rather than a luxury, and when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) reduce provision it is likely that we will be standing every single day.

[John R]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) do have first class on all but their inner suburban stock, so I'm not sure why you say they don't. Even the SWT service to Reading has 1st.

My point was to Wimbledon - operated by inner suburban EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) - that have no first class (and no toilet). Do not equate the 2 hour SWT rambling to Reading on Junipers with the 20 minute commute to Wimbledon.

So you're comparing suburban services to Wimbledon (7 miles out of Waterloo) with high speed services to Reading (36 miles out of Paddington) carrying long distance passengers to Swansea, Bristol and Penzance. Hardly a like for like comparison. 

A better comparison would be SWT longer distance services to Bournemouth, Exeter and Portsmouth calling both at Woking (24 miles) and Basingstoke (47 miles, Bournemouth, Exeter lines only). Guess what? They both have very heavy commuter flows and all services have first class accommodation. So I don't think the SWT comparison helps your argument.

Most leave with 1 or 2 seats occupied in a row of 6.

 

I think you'll find that the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s first class accommodation has 3 across.

[Southern Stag]

What I'm saying is that for some the extra cost of a First Class ticket is essential, rather than a luxury, and when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) reduce provision it is likely that we will be standing every single day.

But at the same time less Standard Class passengers will be standing. If you replace a whole First Class carriage with a whole Standard Class carriage you go from 48 to up to 84 seats. First Class may be busy at first when the changes are made but I expect anybody who find they are standing in First Class everyday will quite quickly either take an alternative service or start travelling in Standard Class instead. It could well end up losing FGW revenue by reducing the First Class provision, but it seems that it is the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s idea.

[didcotdean]

What I'm saying is that for some the extra cost of a First Class ticket is essential, rather than a luxury, and when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) reduce provision it is likely that we will be standing every single day.

That has been the result on Chiltern in that now everyone has an equal chance of being the standee. I too am someone who cannot physically stand stationary for more than a few minutes and also witnessed what happened to those unfortunate enough to be standing in the Ladbroke Grove crash. I therefore rarely risk travelling standard without a reserved seat these days, at whatever time. Movement maybe should be to allow seats to be bookable on all services!

It is a rock and a hard place situation. The HST^▸ (High Speed Train) replacement is now years later than needed, and although this delay has led to electrification, it has had an adverse affect on catering for the expansion in rail use. The high density HSTs I suspect were thought at their introduction to be enough but this is not been an adequate stopgap (and leave insufficient room for luggage). There turbos have been inadequate for years.

[BerkshireBugsy]

My weekly travel card  from Thatcham to London is ^121.50 as opposed to ^52 per day so it does take a lot to work out the savings

Ironically posting this from the 1806 Paddington to Frome services which tonight seems to be stuck at Reading for a long time