Four track for Filton Bank - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Red Squirrel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHvUarwTlck - in case anyone doesn't know what they're on about!

[DaveHarries]

I'm surprised that you're surprised! A train on the Up Filton Main can only go via FIT P2, there are no points offering any other choice*. SandTE's pictures show P2 as bidirectional, and from what he has said P1 is signalled for trains to leave in the Up direction after reversing but not to enter from the Up Filton Main.

When you pointed out previously that the WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) was still showing paths and platforms for the old track arrangement, I didn't twig that would include ones that are now physically impossible. But they are all still there - most northbound trains for south Wales are shown using P3, and none using P4. OK, one can understand that if it makes sense not to update the WTT (leaving aside why that might be). But what flummoxes me a bit is that RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) and OTT^▸ (Open Train Times website) both show yesterday's 2U12 as actually using P3 (i.e. in bold or as "as booked").

*Strictly there is a crossover to P1, not signalled as noted above, and in any case why would you want to if you're going to south Wales?

I am surprised because, although I knew that P3 would no longer be used for Cardiff-bound trains I thought that the new P4 was to replace that so I hadn't been expecting P2 to be facilitated for Cardiff services too.

Dave

[Louis94]

When you pointed out previously that the WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) was still showing paths and platforms for the old track arrangement, I didn't twig that would include ones that are now physically impossible. But they are all still there - most northbound trains for south Wales are shown using P3, and none using P4. OK, one can understand that if it makes sense not to update the WTT (leaving aside why that might be). But what flummoxes me a bit is that RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) and OTT^▸ (Open Train Times website) both show yesterday's 2U12 as actually using P3 (i.e. in bold or as "as booked").

At present whenever a train uses Platform 2 to go towards Cardiff, the signals it steps through are the same as what would be stepped through for Platform 3 previously. This results in incorrect reporting that the train is using Platform 3. It looks like Network Rail need to update their data (SMART) and the background data just needs a slight tweak on RTT to remove this incorrect platform report.

[stuving]

When you pointed out previously that the WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) was still showing paths and platforms for the old track arrangement, I didn't twig that would include ones that are now physically impossible. But they are all still there - most northbound trains for south Wales are shown using P3, and none using P4. OK, one can understand that if it makes sense not to update the WTT (leaving aside why that might be). But what flummoxes me a bit is that RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) and OTT^▸ (Open Train Times website) both show yesterday's 2U12 as actually using P3 (i.e. in bold or as "as booked").

At present whenever a train uses Platform 2 to go towards Cardiff, the signals it steps through are the same as what would be stepped through for Platform 3 previously. This results in incorrect reporting that the train is using Platform 3. It looks like Network Rail need to update their data (SMART) and the background data just needs a slight tweak on RTT to remove this incorrect platform report.

Only a few trains show that (including some goods), but looking closer I can see that all the ones reported as using P4 also used the reliefs (and so get shown on RTT with a platform number). That's what I was saying in my earlier post - that in order to get enough use out of P3&4 at FIT, most trains to/from Wales have to use the reliefs even if not stopping.

[metalrail]

I am surprised because, although I knew that P3 would no longer be used for Cardiff-bound trains I thought that the new P4 was to replace that so I hadn't been expecting P2 to be facilitated for Cardiff services too.

Dave

I'm wondering if they've still been overriding ARS^▸ (Automatic Route Setting) this week looking at some of the train movements, which is why some Cardiff bound trains have been run into P2 instead of P4

There's been several instances of PMH-CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) / TAU^» (Taunton - next trains)-CDF services being run up the main lines to avoid delayed services on the reliefs, the same as there's been delayed XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services being run into P1 at the last minute at BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) to prevent holding up on-time PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) services, and then run into P2 at all other times if they're on time / not holding up other services

[WelshBluebird]

Already saw a slight benefit this morning with the Severn Beach line train I was on running 5 minutes late towards Temple Meads. In the past this would have held up the Great Malvern to Weymouth train that normally runs 7 or so minutes behind, but is usually delayed if that Severn Beach train is running late. Today it used the new main's, meaning it arrived into Temple Meads just after I did (rather than 5 minutes or so later), and so my connection was a nice walk over from P1 to P7, onto the train, then leaving a minute later, no waits needed! Of course, I know at some point (probably sooner rather than later!) this will inconvenience rather than help me as I can no longer rely on the Weymouth service always being behind us as long as we hit Narroways first, but it is nice to see the reliability improvements so obviously this soon.

[Red Squirrel]

It seems to me that delays are still very much a thing on the Severn Beach line... staring at TrackIt, many of these seem to originate at Bristol East...

[metalrail]

It seems to me that delays are still very much a thing on the Severn Beach line... staring at TrackIt, many of these seem to originate at Bristol East...

I noticed a lot of Beach line delays yesterday on TrackIt too

One of the biggest problems then seemed to be BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) bound services waiting at CFN^▸ (Clifton Down station) for the AVN / SVB services to arrive so they could crossover before the single line stretch to Narroways

In one case then, and again this morning, the BRI bound service departed to prevent it running any later leaving the CFN bound service stuck at SRD for ages til the single line was cleared (and another PMH-CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) service was redirected up the main line)

Am guessing before that there's no way they'd allow that to happen and they'd hold the other train at CFN to clear the Up lines, but now with the opportunity to bypass trains held at LWH & SRD they've started doing that?

[SandTEngineer]

It seems to me that delays are still very much a thing on the Severn Beach line... staring at TrackIt, many of these seem to originate at Bristol East...

I think the regulation problems have now shifted to Bristol East Junction (well aren't we supprised).  Its not the best of layouts and needs to be the next target for rearrangement (think it was going to happen pre-electrification; so who knows when now ).

[Dispatch Box]

I'm surprised that you're surprised! A train on the Up Filton Main can only go via FIT P2, there are no points offering any other choice*. SandTE's pictures show P2 as bidirectional, and from what he has said P1 is signalled for trains to leave in the Up direction after reversing but not to enter from the Up Filton Main.

When you pointed out previously that the WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) was still showing paths and platforms for the old track arrangement, I didn't twig that would include ones that are now physically impossible. But they are all still there - most northbound trains for south Wales are shown using P3, and none using P4. OK, one can understand that if it makes sense not to update the WTT (leaving aside why that might be). But what flummoxes me a bit is that RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) and OTT^▸ (Open Train Times website) both show yesterday's 2U12 as actually using P3 (i.e. in bold or as "as booked").

*Strictly there is a crossover to P1, not signalled as noted above, and in any case why would you want to if you're going to south Wales?

I am surprised because, although I knew that P3 would no longer be used for Cardiff-bound trains I thought that the new P4 was to replace that so I hadn't been expecting P2 to be facilitated for Cardiff services too.

Dave

I Thought there was a position 1 Junction Indicator just before platform 2 to allow trains into p2 then on to Cardiff. I suppose the platform 2 route for Wales trains is incase one breaks down on the relief.

[metalrail]

I think the regulation problems have now shifted to Bristol East Junction (well aren't we supprised).  Its not the best of layouts and needs to be the next target for rearrangement (think it was going to happen pre-electrification; so who knows when now ).

As with everything, you remove one bottleneck and it highlights another...  I can see the single line between Narroways and CFN^▸ (Clifton Down station) also becoming an issue as time goes on, especially as one of the benefits of four tracking was to enable more stopping services at both SRD and LWH

[WelshBluebird]

Are there any plans to add platforms to the new main lines at Stapleton Road and Lawrence hill / is there enough room with the new track layout to do so in the future if it becomes necessary / desired?

Also totally agree about the single track on the Beach line. It is already a problem anyway, but hopefully with removing one source of delays and adding the ability to keep units at  Stapleton Road or Lawrence hill whilst they wait for a Bristol bound train to pass the junction we have a little wiggle room.

[Red Squirrel]

...

In one case then, and again this morning, the BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) bound service departed to prevent it running any later leaving the CFN^▸ (Clifton Down station) bound service stuck at SRD for ages til the single line was cleared (and another PMH-CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) service was redirected up the main line)

Am guessing before that there's no way they'd allow that to happen and they'd hold the other train at CFN to clear the Up lines, but now with the opportunity to bypass trains held at LWH & SRD they've started doing that?

That does sound likely, doesn't it? For BRI-bound passengers that would be seen as an advantage of the new arrangement; I wonder what the time-penalty was for the CFN-bound passengers?

Are there any plans to add platforms to the new main lines at Stapleton Road and Lawrence hill / is there enough room with the new track layout to do so in the future if it becomes necessary / desired?

No. And although the four-tracking project made passive provision for a four-platform station at Ashley Down, the costings and developed scheme for this are for a two-platform station here too.

[metalrail]

That does sound likely, doesn't it? For BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-bound passengers that would be seen as an advantage of the new arrangement; I wonder what the time-penalty was for the CFN^▸ (Clifton Down station)-bound passengers?

It's a benefit for now with the existing timetable, but with the desire to get more stopping services that would definitely become an issue

I'm assuming that either the half hourly departures from PWY on the CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-TAU^» (Taunton - next trains) / CDF-PMH harbour will be amended at some point in the future to stop at LWH & SRD, along with the new Ashley Hill station when it opens

Plus the hourly BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains)-WSM which calls at both stations on it's return from WSM but not on the way there

At the moment there's no daytime trains at all between PWY & LWH/SRD, and one an hour (sometimes once every two hours) from BPW

Don't get me wrong, it's been really interesting following all the paths the last couple of days and seeing how the new main lines have allowed the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) / Freight & some CDF services to be run up these freeing up the reliefs, but a lot more thought will be needed to accomodate all of the planned additional local services without adding extra delays on existing ones

[Red Squirrel]

Meanwhile, at Filton Abbey Wood: Nice day for taking a couple of pics, thought I.

First one shows a Cardiff-bound GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) service on Platform 4, whilst an inbound Manchester-Temple Meads Cross Country service passes through;
Second shows a Cardiff-Portsmouth Harbour train pulling in to Platform 3;
Third is looking south off the bridge into the low hazy sun.