Four track for Filton Bank - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[martyjon]

.....and here is the left hand end of the BRISTOL EAST signalbox diagram that you can't see in the earlier photograph.  Note that BRISTOL OLD STATION had been abolished by then and its tracks/signals abolished, so that dates the photograph to sometime in the mid-1960s.



...and a low resolution drawing of the whole layout here: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S586.htm

There is one of these track layout diagrams showing simulations of trains in and out of Temple Meads showing the track circuits being used in the Signalling Centre at the Didcot Railway Centre.

[stuving]

There was an accident at Lawrence Hill in 1930, and the report is online in the Railways Archive. In itself that mostly tells you how long ago this was and how primitive goods train operations were - all that messing about pinning down and picking up brakes. Mind you, the last unfitted goods ran not so long ago - 1980s sometime. The inspector's conclusion was to blame one of the signalmen (their accounts flatly contradicted each other), but he identified the real cause as "loose block working". All that disciplined following of every rule in the (big) book at all times  really was essential to safety.

A couple of snippets, though, about the line - two line pairs, the South Wales lines to the east and the Clifton lines to the west. That was out of date by then, with four tracks all the way to Filton, though not long before (20 years at most) those Clifton lines did only turn left at Narroways (hence no junction). And the inspector says that traffic was 350 trains on all four tracks over 24 hours, with 27 stopping to pick up brakes.

[SandTEngineer]

Yes, interesting report concerning slack working.  Noted the at that time the Up direction was towards Dr Days Junction and not as today.

[JontyMort]

Westerleigh East Curve I think you will find was a WWII^▸ (World War 2 - 1939 to 1945) addition but without looking it up in a book I got of the Bristol to Gloucester line cant comment on date of Westerleigh West curve. I think you will find that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) had running powers over the Midland line from Yate South to Standish Junction as GWR ran services from Bristol to Birkenhead via Cheltenham, Stratford-on-Avon, Birmingham Snow Hill, Wolverhampton Low Level, Shrewsbury, Chester and Birkenhead. 

Yes, I think you're right about both curves. The east one would still be useful for diversionary purposes when the Sapperton route is closed, but we don't really do sensible things like that nowadays.

The wiki article on Westerleigh suggests 1908 for the west curve. That is consistent with what I read elsewhere about the Midland agreeing running powers to Berkeley Road only *from the Badminton line*. The running powers from Bristol to Standish were not in dispute, but the lawyer in me suspects that the Midland felt that these applied only all the way from Bristol and didn't allow the GW^▸ (Great Western) to dump stuff on to the MR^▸ (Midland Railway) at Yate from its new-fangled line. But I am not enough of an expert on running powers - and we're straying a long way from Filton! 


Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.

[Dispatch Box]

Gloucester Area resignaling was originally scheduled for 2021, with susposed reverse time improvements buy up to 2 minutes.

Was that the CP5^▸ (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019) plan or CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) plan?

Think it was under CP6.

[metalrail]

Both Westerleigh E & W curves / junctions were present in the 1939 RCH maps

[IndustryInsider]

Gloucester Area resignaling was originally scheduled for 2021, with susposed reverse time improvements buy up to 2 minutes.

Presumable achieved with quicker entry and exit speeds into the platforms?  IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)'s will also see reversal time improvements over HST^▸ (High Speed Train) operated services as the cab is a couple of minutes quicker to set up.  We will see if the timetable planners take advantage of that next December I suppose.

[Dispatch Box]

Gloucester Area resignaling was originally scheduled for 2021, with susposed reverse time improvements buy up to 2 minutes.

Presumable achieved with quicker entry and exit speeds into the platforms?  IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)'s will also see reversal time improvements over HST^▸ (High Speed Train) operated services as the cab is a couple of minutes quicker to set up.  We will see if the timetable planners take advantage of that next December I suppose.

When the IET Trains first ran into Gloucester they tried the 10 car ones and found that the platforms 1 and 2 were not long enough and had to then use platform 4. At the moment some 5 car and 9 car ones are used for now. Signals G58 and G133 on platform 2 needed to be moved slightly. I think they would be better off getting rid of platform 1 and moving to the top of platform 4. You would have two long ones plus a bay for swindon and Malvern turbos,


Is there any plans to alter the layout east of Bristol temple meads, I wonder as some signals were not replaced, only renumbered, while at the Plymouth end they were all renewed.

[SandTEngineer]

Is there any plans to alter the layout east of Bristol temple meads, I wonder as some signals were not replaced, only renumbered, while at the Plymouth end they were all renewed.

Its already been 'resignalled/recontrolled' from TVSC^» (Thames Valley Signalling Centre - about) at Didcot, so nothing planned as far as I understand it.  Next and final stage is Bristol North Somerset Junction to Box Tunnel in April 2019.  Not sure if there are any CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) plans to close Bristol Panel and recontrol the remaining area to TVSC (or even Exeter ROC^▸ (Rail Operating Centre - a centralised location for railway signalling and train control operations for a specific route or region) thats being planned or at least talked about).

Of course, if the long mooted plan to reopen the Old Bristol Train Shed platforms comes to pass, then Bristol Panel will have to go as its in the way......

[Dispatch Box]

Is there any plans to alter the layout east of Bristol temple meads, I wonder as some signals were not replaced, only renumbered, while at the Plymouth end they were all renewed.

Its already been 'resignalled/recontrolled' from TVSC^» (Thames Valley Signalling Centre - about) at Didcot, so nothing planned as far as I understand it.  Next and final stage is Bristol North Somerset Junction to Box Tunnel in April 2019.  Not sure if there are any CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) plans to close Bristol Panel and recontrol the remaining area to TVSC (or even Exeter ROC^▸ (Rail Operating Centre - a centralised location for railway signalling and train control operations for a specific route or region) thats being planned or at least talked about).

Of course, if the long mooted plan to reopen the Old Bristol Train Shed platforms comes to pass, then Bristol Panel will have to go as its in the way......

I had been told that a new I E C C. Was planned for Exeter to work to Penzance as TVSC Was now full.

[stuving]

I did find one map that showed a route off the MR^▸ (Midland Railway) line to the (new) Lawrence Hill Junction - it's labelled "Russian Map Bristol 1972" (presumably Soviet would be more accurate). There are other postwar OS^▸ (Ordnance Survey) maps (also on old-maps.co.uk) that show the MR line on an embankment and the sidings at its foot - well, you wouldn't want the sidings to slope down to the junction, would you?

I can believe the OS didn't always update track changes by then - too many roads and new houses, or railway buildings coming down (as at St. Philip's), to do. But I'm sure the Soviets (GRU, I guess) had independent survey information: I have a mental image of men in raincoats deftly manipulating those tiny 16 mm still cameras. Or do you think they had help from some local university lecturers who could easily claim to be railway buffs?

[JontyMort]

Both Westerleigh E & W curves / junctions were present in the 1939 RCH maps

Yes, wiki re the Badminton line - which, curiously has more detail on Westerleigh than the entry on Westerleigh itself - suggests the east curve lasted intermittently from 1908 to 1950, with closure from 1916 to 1919, and a long period of closure from 1927 to 1942. Both curves appear in Jowett.

Wish me luck on a Worcester-Bristol return trip tomorrow - via Swindon, of course.

[Bmblbzzz]

I did find one map that showed a route off the MR^▸ (Midland Railway) line to the (new) Lawrence Hill Junction - it's labelled "Russian Map Bristol 1972" (presumably Soviet would be more accurate). There are other postwar OS^▸ (Ordnance Survey) maps (also on old-maps.co.uk) that show the MR line on an embankment and the sidings at its foot - well, you wouldn't want the sidings to slope down to the junction, would you?

I can believe the OS didn't always update track changes by then - too many roads and new houses, or railway buildings coming down (as at St. Philip's), to do. But I'm sure the Soviets (GRU, I guess) had independent survey information: I have a mental image of men in raincoats deftly manipulating those tiny 16 mm still cameras. Or do you think they had help from some local university lecturers who could easily claim to be railway buffs?

Does anyone on this forum live in Salisbury?
<pulls down brim of hat, looks shiftily from side to side>

[metalrail]

Is there any plans to alter the layout east of Bristol temple meads, I wonder as some signals were not replaced, only renumbered, while at the Plymouth end they were all renewed.

Its already been 'resignalled/recontrolled' from TVSC^» (Thames Valley Signalling Centre - about) at Didcot, so nothing planned as far as I understand it.  Next and final stage is Bristol North Somerset Junction to Box Tunnel in April 2019.  Not sure if there are any CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) plans to close Bristol Panel and recontrol the remaining area to TVSC (or even Exeter ROC^▸ (Rail Operating Centre - a centralised location for railway signalling and train control operations for a specific route or region) thats being planned or at least talked about).

Of course, if the long mooted plan to reopen the Old Bristol Train Shed platforms comes to pass, then Bristol Panel will have to go as its in the way......

And part of reopening the Old Shed platforms along with electrification to Temple Meads was to remodel Bristol E Junction too wasn't it?

[Dispatch Box]

The aspects on a 3-aspect LED signal (R/Y/G) are all displayed through the lower aspect and on a 4-aspect LED signal the top aspect displays the additional double yellow aspect only (Y) or what in the trade we call the 'top yellow' or 'second yellow'.

Hope that makes sense?  Read all about it here: http://www.unipartdorman.com/assets/lightweight_signalling_handbook.pdf
Health Warning: Its a large document

It makes sense to me (it confirms what I thought I knew already), but clarity for those to whom it doesn't make sense would be improved if one of the uses of 'aspect' was replaced with a different word. For instance if "The aspects on a 3-aspect LED signal (R/Y/G) are all displayed through the lower aspect" became "The aspects on a 3-aspect LED signal (R/Y/G) are all displayed through the lower lens". However, railway jargon, like all jargons, isn't really intended to make sense to the general public, so this doesn't actually matter!

I think we need new meanings about signal aspects, First the old ones were multiple aspect ones, as the old signaling using turn switch or push button panels were know, also eNtrance eXit is included. Now the new led signals with combined heads should I think be called triple aspect signals, sounds better dosent it.