Early departure to avoid connecting passengers causing a delay?

[whole diary]

[Henry]

 However in the same situation at Newton Abbot, I've known trains for the Paigton branch to be held for
 Cross-Country connections in the event of late running.
 So does each station have a different policy for holding connections, or is it down to the attitude of the person
 despatching the train ? 

[IndustryInsider]

There are specific rules at certain stations, and specific rules with certain trains - particularly when it's the last connection of the night.  Staff can then hold that train without having to bother contacting 'control' for permission.  At other stations it seems to vary from how the staff are trained.  Reading staff often have no qualms sending a Turbo off more than 15 seconds early giving permission to close the doors the standard 40 seconds before, wheraes Slough are generally excellent and don't blow the whistle on a Turbo until 15 seconds before at the earliest.

[ChrisB]

Hindsight is - of course - marvellous stuff, and we cannot expect staff to have crystal balls.   I have to agree with the thread's sentiment that seems to be (a) public timetable time should be last boarding time, (b) there should be a service etiquette from management that says "if people are running for a train, think 'customer' and let 'em get it" and (c) think before you dispatch the very last service.

You'll never get TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) agreement to b) simply because of delay attribution minutes. Also - if you hold for the first pax changing trains, where do you stop holding - for that guy who can't run as fast maybe? It's not workable for these reasons

[grahame]

Trying for the same connection again tonight. 

Once again, the Cross Country service was delayed into Parkway and then before the stations on the way in to Bristol by a late running stopper from Gloucester and beyond; tonight it arrived around 2.5 minutes after the last Weymouth was due to leave - and indeed a dash to platform 7 revealed just an empty track.

As the Weymouth had gone from the board so only those of us "in the know" knew which platform to dash to, the group was smaller ... only five people at the top of the steps, slightly hopeful that we might just make the train.

No complaint about the Weymouth leaving early tonight - I simply don't know.  No staff around on platform 7 to ask either, so no chance of being fed incorrect information either.  So no repeat of my questions to FGW^▸ (First Great Western).   Still not very clever in terms of impressing the customer, especially those of us who know it will probably sit at Westbury for 3 or 4 minutes, but that's another story.

Edit to match real time trains closer.  My timepiece was only indicating to the minute, and I was far more concerned to make rapid progress than stop and observe signage!

[Brucey]

According to Real Time Trains, the Weymouth service departed one minute late at 2050.  The Cross Country service arrived at 2051^, just over ten minutes late.

[Nibat]

Just to add a bit of a twist to the whole story...

Have any of you considered those already on the train?  I don't know, their connections could depend on leaving on time...

And I'm not taking sides on this story, I can understand where all of you are coming from.  But the same way that you missed the train because it couldn't be held for a few seconds, somebody else could miss the last train somewhere else because of it (whether it's an official connection or not).  You would be surprised how a few seconds here can account for a few minutes there!

I was once asked to justify a minute delay (yes, 1 minute) to a Paignton to Paddington service.  Apparently that minute caused delays to another 27 trains...

[grahame]

According to Real Time Trains, 15 seconds early into Weymouth, with a couple of stops along the way being extended by a minute from working timetable schedules.   A few minutes of recovery time built into the schedule there, exactly as there should be to make up for any delays incurred and get back on time.  No way of knowing whether the train was being gently driven or not - the Knorr-Bremse driver advise system I saw demonstrated a few months ago would make it hard to spot gentle driving, but I don't think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have it yet, and such system has a lot to be said for it in terms of fuel saving and customer perception where trains arrive on time (rather than early).

Not fancying being over 2 hours later home than planned, I detrained at Bradford-on-Avon off the 21:23 Portsmouth Harbour train from Bristol (RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) says it left 135 seconds late) and took a taxi ... rather than awaiting the late bus from Trowbridge.

[grahame]

Just to add a bit of a twist to the whole story...

Have any of you considered those already on the train?  I don't know, their connections could depend on leaving on time...

The original query / issue was about the train leaving early last Friday, and I would contend that others should not depend for connections on a train being early, so I suspect that consideration should not be applied to the first case.  In my view, trains should not leave early and I'm awaiting an answer as to why;  good reason may modify my view.

For last night, yes, I believe I have considered further onward connections (and other services) to the very best of my ability, but that is limited by the data to hand, and I have no real cause for complaint - just to groan.   Beyond Westbury, there are single line and West of England main line considerations, but there are 2 or 3 minutes in hand on the schedule.   The bus 'connection' I wanted in Trowbridge is actually very crisp and more than 3 minutes late off BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) would probably miss - and Temple Meads has more on offer that Trowbridge for a wait!    Should the connection which the journey planner / ticket sites gave me actually make the connection next time (failed 2 out of 2 so far!), I've for a mental note to observe the loading and the demeanour as people leave the train along the way.

[NickB]

Early departures is one thing, especially on turbos where door control is with the driver.  But what REALLY gets my goat is the removal of platform details from the screens at Paddington 2mins or more before the train leaves.

The number of times I have stood looking at a train in the platform wondering if it is the train I need with no information available.

Please, explain why this is necessary?!

[IndustryInsider]

I was once asked to justify a minute delay (yes, 1 minute) to a Paignton to Paddington service.  Apparently that minute caused delays to another 27 trains...

And therein lies the stupidity of delay attribution.  That one minute delay probably didn't cause delay to another 27 trains, it's just that as soon as it happened all the other operators and Network Rail jumped on it to justify other delays.  Hence why managers get jumpy about station delays as a one minute delay can easily be 'the reason' for an hour worth of delays.  It usually isn't, but the money still exchanges hands.

Early departures is one thing, especially on turbos where door control is with the driver.  But what REALLY gets my goat is the removal of platform details from the screens at Paddington 2mins or more before the train leaves.

The number of times I have stood looking at a train in the platform wondering if it is the train I need with no information available.

Please, explain why this is necessary?!

It's no more that 2 minutes, sometimes less if the train is late boarding, and it's because it reduces the number of people rushing like mad for a train.  This can cause accidents as people sprint from the concourse or run down the steps, and will cause delay to the departure of the train - especially when Reading commuters are heading home from London arriving in Paddington in a constant flow.  I used to see it all the time.  People still run now of course, but nowhere near as many. 

What might be sensible (but would need a software alteration I imagine) is for the train to be removed from the departure screens as it is now, but remain on the departure screens on the platforms until closer to the departure time, so that the situation you describe above would be resolved and if you were in a close enough position to make the train.  That might be worth suggesting as a trial?

[NickB]

That sounds very sensible

[eightf48544]

Interesting there was abit on about Bristol in the Channel 5 tonght, showed the 40 second clock and some disgruntled would be passengers who were caught out by the clsoing of the doors.

I tend to agree that the public time should be door close time WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) time can then be 30 seconds later.

[grahame]

Interesting there was abit on about Bristol in the Channel 5 tonght, showed the 40 second clock and some disgruntled would be passengers who were caught out by the clsoing of the doors.

I tend to agree that the public time should be door close time WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) time can then be 30 seconds later.

If the working timetable were 30 seconds behind the public one, the whole "door closing time" issue could be solved, couldn't it.  And it's so much easier to tell people the time they need to be on board rather than leave them to make the calculation.

Where
* A train leaves on time (and doesn't pull our early)
* Passengers are late because they cut it fine on their walk to the station
* There's another one along in half an hour to all destinations and connections
* The staff explain the situation to passengers left behind truthfully
then under current rules fair enough.

Where
* A train actually leaves early
* Passengers miss it because of a late running connection (an "official" one, suggested by the National Rail timetable planner)
* There isn's another one until the next morning
* Blame is attributed to another company when the root cause is a habitually late local train (it was 9 minutes late last night again according to RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) - thats 3 / 3 times that I have gathered evidence for)
that strikes me as being customer unfriendly almost beyond belief.