Early departure to avoid connecting passengers causing a delay?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

A frustrating journey home last night ... I'll let my email to First fill you in ...

Dear Sir,

re: Friday, 27th September 2013

I arrived at Bristol Temple Meads on a train operated by Cross Country (travelling from Birmingham; 1V66), due at 20:39 to connect into the train scheduled to leave at 20:49 for Weymouth (2O98).

The from Birmingham was on time at Cheltenham Spa, but got delayed on the approach to Bristol Parkway, and then had a very slow run into Bristol Temple Meads. It eventually pulled in at 20:47, and drew up to the extreme southern end of the main platform 3 / 4.   A group of us (around a dozen) with heavy luggage rushed to Platform 7 though the subway, but as we got to the top of the steps, the Weymouth train could be seen leaving the end of the platform as the clock came up to 20:49. Later checking online confirmed the Weymouth train had indeed left early.

On asking a member of your dispatch team why the train hadn't waited for us, we were informed that it was nothing to do with First because the Cross Country train had been late, and that trains could not be delayed because of connections.

So that I understand for the future, can you let me know:

a) Under what circumstances trains leave before the time shown in the public timetable?  Is to done to ensure that the train won't get held up and so made late by passengers transferring from another late-arriving train, or is there some other more palletable reason for those of us who were stranded by the early departure? It may have been just 15 seconds to you, but it became much more than that for around a dozen customers of yours, none of whom had many kind words for you in the circumstances.

b) The Cross Country train was delayed into Bristol Parkway because of a First local train from Worcester that was running late, and it then got held up further while stuck behind that late First local train stopped at intermediate stations, still running late, on its way into Temple Meads [checked online - train 2T97].  How can this be "nothing to do with First" which is what your dispatcher told us?

Yours faithfully,

There were a number of long distance traveller for Yeovil who were going to have quite a problem - this was a connection into last train of the day.   And it also meant that my bus connection at Trowbridge was missed;   I'm lucky enough to have a number of other (though much less good) ways of getting home like phoning someone up and asking for a pickup from B-o-A, or getting the 23:08 bus off Bath.

Note to posters - if this gets interesting and produces something significant in answer or comment, I may move the thread into a more public area.  If it fades as just a rant, I'll leave it in Frequent Posters as I do appreciate what a hard job the railways have.

Topic was originally started in "frequent posters" - our (only extra) board for registered and well established members.  However - as noted above - it has developed into a really interesting discussion that's worthy of a wider audience, so it's been moved ...

[LiskeardRich]

I suspect you'll get fobbed off with something along the lines of "we lock the doors 30 seconds before departure" therefore 15 seconds early is irrelevant as long as doors weren't locked until public departure time minus 30 seconds.

shows what a great integrated rail network with the we don't care you were with xc attitude.

[grahame]

Let's wait and see what response I get rather than pre-judging;   I really don't / didn't want to turn this into a "bash the train co" thread - and not until there's been a good chance for positive explanations to be given.

shows what a great integrated rail network with the we don't care you were with xc attitude.

What I found really good - on both Manchester to Birmingham and Birmingham to Bristol legs - was announcements not only along the lines of "changed for xxx" but also "you'll find that train on platform yy and its final destination is zzz"  And that help did go beyond Arriva-operated services too ...

[LiskeardRich]

I didn't intend to bash them, its a well known procedure that doors lock 30 seconds before scheduled departure, therefore to me if scheduled departure is 11:00, I treat that as latest boarding as 10:59:30.

Actually just looked on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website and its well published on there as 40 seconds.

Many of our trains have power operated doors. These are closed up to 40 seconds before departure. Never attempt to board the train when the warning signal is sounding and the doors are about to close. Do not prevent the doors from closing

I understanding holding a departure even a few seconds can cause a train to miss a slot where its tight. Of course the operator causing you to miss a last connection still have responsibilities to get you to the destination.

[bobm]

What I found really good - on both Manchester to Birmingham and Birmingham to Bristol legs - was announcements not only along the lines of "changed for xxx" but also "you'll find that train on platform yy and its final destination is zzz"  And that help did go beyond Arriva-operated services too ...

I have noticed that on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services in recent weeks.  Particularly on the approach to Bristol Temple Meads and Exeter St David's.  I noticed one TM^‡(resolve) reading them off the National Rail Train Times App!

[grahame]

Actually just looked on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website and its well published on there as 40 seconds.

Yeah ... I know.  Perhaps it was dispatched early to avoid the danger of people who wanted to travel fisting the doors in an attempt to get on board before it left, and to avoid a health and safety problem / risk of someone getting seriously injured as they rush up to the train just as it pulls out.  So - is the 40 seconds more generous than needed, or was the dispatch started 60 seconds before timetabled departure?

I understanding holding a departure even a few seconds can cause a train to miss a slot where its tight.

I don't think it does in this case.  Nothing else reading up towards Bath at that time of night, and the train sat for 2 minutes in Westbury, before leaving there a whole minute ahead of the working timetable.  I'll bet the train operators love all this stuff being online for the public to read   , and with the benefit of time to consider and hindsight too!

[Rhydgaled]

I suspect you'll get fobbed off with something along the lines of "we lock the doors 30 seconds before departure" therefore 15 seconds early is irrelevant as long as doors weren't locked until public departure time minus 30 seconds.

I think that policy is morally wrong. The depature time in the public timetable should be the moment the doors are locked, not a nanosecond before. The working timetable is timed to half-mintute intervals, so the solution in my opinion should be putting published depature time 30 secs before the actual departure time given in the working timetable. That way, the railway works with a timetable which has the doors locked 30 seconds before departure but the general public don't see that, they see the time the doors are actually locked.

[John R]

Realtimetrains shows it departing at 2048 3/4, though that may mean that it actually pulled off even earlier, depending on where the point is that triggers the message that it's pulled off.

Isn't the situation for the last train of the evening supposed to be different, with more flexibility given as to holding the connection?

So presumably XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) would have picked up the bill to get any passengers to the Weymouth branch to their destination, whereas the actual fault lay with FGW^▸ (First Great Western). Wonder whether the system for accounting for this sort of thing is sophisticated enough so that it eventually gets charged back to FGW.

This type of nonsense does give the railway a bad name though. It smacks of "stuff the passenger" - how would old or otherwise vulnerable people respond in such a situation. Or a 16 year old making a journey of that length for their own for the first time. You can see that one such experience would put people off a second journey for a very long time.

[Sapperton Tunnel]

A frustrating journey home last night ... I'll let my email to First fill you in ...


There were a number of long distance traveller for Yeovil who were going to have quite a problem - this was a connection into last train of the day.   And it also meant that my bus connection at Trowbridge was missed;   I'm lucky enough to have a number of other (though much less good) ways of getting home like phoning someone up and asking for a pickup from B-o-A, or getting the 23:08 bus off Bath.

Note to posters - if this gets interesting and produces something significant in answer or comment, I may move the thread into a more public area.  If it fades as just a rant, I'll leave it in Frequent Posters as I do appreciate what a hard job the railways have.

Presumably the Yeovil and Weymouth line passengers would have been asked to catch the 21:31 Portsmouth Harbour train to Westbury and then FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to have arranged a taxi from there, with XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) picking up the bill as the XC train arrived in less than the 7(?) 10 minutes minimum connection time at Temple Meads.

This situation has happened to Mrs ST several times at Cheltenham when she has arrived there on a late running XC train from the north and the last Swindon train has departed - FGW quite efficient at arranging Taxis etc to give them their full due.

The question that occurred to me reading Grahame's post is what if you have a 'Plus Bus' ticket and you arrive at a station after the last Bus has gone because the train was late? Do you have any redress then?

ST 

Edit - minimum connection time changed from initial 7 mins guess to actual 10 mins as stated in the National Timetable.     

[ChrisB]

They are definitely going to refer to the 40secs before departure rule for clising doors, meaning you needed to be at train-side by 20:46 and 20secs minimum to board a 2047 departure.

However, it still shouldn't depart until time, so 20:47:00 earliest, even if doors shut 'n locked & the RA given to the driver.

Doesn't sound as though you were there early enough to have been able to board?

With ref to delay attribution, you can guarantee that XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) staff will have put their train's delay down to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)! No doubt....

[grahame]

They are definitely going to refer to the 40secs before departure rule for clising doors, meaning you needed to be at train-side by 20:46 and 20secs minimum to board a 2047 departure.

20:47:1? was the door opening time on the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) train at the long platform. (train due 20:39)

Add two minutes to each of your other times as 20:49 was the schedule, not 20:47.  Had the scheduled departure been 20:47, I would merely be sadly lamenting the lack of holding last train of the day, and not considering it to be a more serious problem of an early departure.  And indeed I probably wouldn't even have tried to make the connection, knowing it to be - as it would have been - less than minimum time.

Edit - minimum connection time changed from initial 7 mins guess to actual 10 mins as stated in the National Timetable.     

National and online timetable enquires offer the change from the 20:39 arrival from Birmingham and beyond onto the 20:49 departure to Weymouth on journey planners, etc - it's very much an official connection and that's probably why there were a lot of people trying to make it.

[Sapperton Tunnel]

Edit - minimum connection time changed from initial 7 mins guess to actual 10 mins as stated in the National Timetable.     

National and online timetable enquires offer the change from the 20:39 arrival from Birmingham and beyond onto the 20:49 departure to Weymouth on journey planners, etc - it's very much an official connection and that's probably why there were a lot of people trying to make it.

Sorry, I didn't explain my point properly. In my and my wife's experience the minimum connection time works both ways. Yours was an official connection as it obeys the 10 minute rule. However, the actual arrival of the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) train was less than the 10 mins so "officially" as well as in its actuality due to its early departure, you did not make the connection and were entitled to the various recompenses.

A little while ago, my wife was accompanying a wheelchair user on an XC Cardiff to Birmingham train. The scheduled arrival at Gloucester was 20:58 with a connecting departure for Stroud at 21:21. The connection time at Gloucester is 7 mins. The XC train was 18 mins late and arrived 5 mins before departure of the Stroud train. The able bodied passengers easily made the connection, but it took 12 mins to unload the wheelchair user and cross from platform 4 to platform 1 via a not very cooperative lift, by which time the Stroud train had departed, although it was requested to be held.

Because the train had arrived less than 7 mins for the connection, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) then provided a wheelchair accessible taxi immediately to take them straight home on that basis, as to complicate matters, there were engineering works with buses replacing all of the later trains.

ST

[Hafren]

The 40 second rule does seem a bit excessive based on the typical dwell time at smaller stations being 30 seconds! I wonder if 40 seconds is actually what dispatch staff follow or just what they tell passengers to give a slight margin.

At Cardiff Central valley platforms they often seem to start the process about 20 seconds before departure time, which seems to work well to allow a bang-on departure.  (It's probably more like 30-40 for HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train).) At unstaffed stations it might be a bit less, allowing a 30 second dwell to work, as there's no reaction time between dispatcher and guard, and the platform is less busy so fewer hazards to notice.

In the original example, would it have been possible to lock the doors but allow last-minute connecting passengers in through the guard's door. That way the final dispatch time would have been reduced without as much disadvantage to connecting passengers. Assuming in this specific situation they were anticipating the connection.

[Red Squirrel]

Before reading this thread I had considered the practise of locking the doors 40 seconds before departure time to be 'just one of those (rather irritating) things'. Now I realise it is ludicrous.

Public transport running late can be forgiven - many factors can cause delay, and even those that are within the control of the operators often have a reasonable explanation. Running early is unforgivable under anything but exceptional circumstances, because it can only be caused by deliberately leaving ahead of the published time. Once the doors are locked, the train has to all intents and purposes departed - no-one arriving in those 40 seconds will be allowed to board. It strikes me that this is an example of the rail industry failing to see things from the passengers' perspective - isn't the answer to this simple? Is it not just a matter of publishing the 'doors locked' time in the timetable, instead of the 'wheels turning' time?

Speaking from personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that 40 seconds seems like a very long time when you are standing on a platform, having arrived in time (according to the timetable and the station clock) to catch your train, only to be told that the doors are locked and you can't get on.

[Brucey]

Virgin Trains operate a "boarding gates are closed two minutes before departure" policy at London Euston.  This isn't advertised very well in advance of arriving at the station, IMO^▸ (in my opinion).

I've travelled over 1165 miles in the last three days.  Nearly every train departed at least one station before the advertised time.  On one Scotrail service, I could still see people running up the stairs as we pulled away thirty seconds before the advertised time.

I don't understand why the timetable can't show the doors/boarding gate locked time.  It would simplify things, rather than having different policies around the national network.