Bus discrimination case

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Reading that Mumsnet thread, I'm very glad our exchanges are nothing like theirs!

There appears to be a lot of talk of 'entitlement' over there. I wish there was a solicitor on there that could explain their legal entitlement!

If operatives are to be required to enforce, I can see operators simply banning pushchairs & buggies....a simpler process that removes the requirement on operatives. Passes to be developed to enable anyone with a disabled need to still use one maybe.

[LiskeardRich]

There is too much jumping to conclusion a pushchair contains an able baby, not here but on other internet sites. A good friend has a disabled 2 year old, and it's not a simple case of taking her out of the pushchair.
To an untrained eye she looks like a normal toddler in a normal pushchair, but the pushchair contains additional support and potentially dangerous for her to held out of the pushchair.

[ChrisB]

Probably reasonable, comparing the number of able kids to disabled kids that use pushchairs? Musty be at least 90/10 in able bodied kids?

[grahame]

There is too much jumping to conclusion a pushchair contains an able baby, not here but on other internet sites. A good friend has a disabled 2 year old, and it's not a simple case of taking her out of the pushchair.

That is an excellent thought - indeed our family has experience, and there's an assumption that young = fully able. But had the child in the pushchair been disabled in this case, it would never have got to the stage it has because Mr Paulley would be arguing for the precedence of a disable 36 year old (himself) over a disabled 2 year old.

[ChrisB]

Another reason that he'll never win

[thetrout]

Taking this slightly toilet bound but very relevant nonetheless.

So someone who has a disability who needs to use an accessibility compliant facility has priority over someone who is already in it? Errr no... It doesn't. In most places baby changing facilities are provided in disabled toilets so it's a very similar scenario. So should I have the right to turf out a mother changing a baby? No. Of course not. The facility is provided as appropriate, that very moment in time it was in use and I needed to wait my turn.

So I think it's poor form for the case to go to the Supreme Court over a point of priority for Disabled Passengers rather than equality.

That being said. Those who are fully able-bodied and exploit what is a basic necessity for some passengers/users less fortunate are the ones I think the original case was getting at.

It is a rather sensitive issue and there really is no ideal solution. The basic fact of the matter is simple. If someone less fortunate needs the space and it is being used inappropriately. Then it should be provided. If it is already occupied by someone with greater needs. Then the facility offering has reached capacity and that's just unfortunate.

I can see some very bad case law in the making here if people aren't careful......

Sadly, some folk are still very much in the belief that disability confines you to a wheelchair. A guesstimate survey for every 100 people in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)... 4 of them will suffer with Crohns Disease or Colitis (Forms of Inflammatory Bowel Disease) ... So that means in a hypothetical group of myself and 100 people. 96 of them will have better digestive systems than I do

How many of those would assume that all is well with me?

Then how many would assume everything in my quirky little head is in order?

Fact is... Most are very quick to pass judgment which can have rather controversial and even embarrassing results...

Going off on a tangent now... But the hoodie has come out because of the recent cold weather... I have noticed a sudden rise in ticket checks in First Class and being more closely observed by store detectives... Just another reason why judging is bad... Even though I perhaps do it myself in some cases

[ChrisB]

So someone who has a disability who needs to use an accessibility compliant facility has priority over someone who is already in it? Errr no... It doesn't. In most places baby changing facilities are provided in disabled toilets so it's a very similar scenario. So should I have the right to turf out a mother changing a baby? No. Of course not. The facility is provided as appropriate, that very moment in time it was in use and I needed to wait my turn.

Not quite the same as a facility required in order to enable someone to travel, though? If it wasn't there, he wouldn't be physically *able* to travel. You could, even if it meant alighting at stations to use the convenience at the station.

So I think it's poor form for the case to go to the Supreme Court over a point of priority for Disabled Passengers rather than equality.

That being said. Those who are fully able-bodied and exploit what is a basic necessity for some passengers/users less fortunate are the ones I think the original case was getting at.

Agreed / yes it was

[LiskeardRich]

Probably reasonable, comparing the number of able kids to disabled kids that use pushchairs? Musty be at least 90/10 in able bodied kids?

But on look the disabled child doesn't look any different to an able 2 year old. Do you want to risk challenging without being able to identify if this is the case. I certainly wouldn't.

[ChrisB]

Ban on pushchairs unless folded or a identifiable pass being shown?

Need for a new pass, but easily developed/distributed.

[LiskeardRich]

I've been talking to a close friend of my wife - She was one of our bridesmaids in fact when we got married. She is wheelchair bound and she has the opinion the judge has made the right decision. Her belief is it should be first come first served.

[ChrisB]

The problem is that there are far more pushchair users than wheelchair users. There could easily be times where the wheelchair user might not be able to board any bus....and that just isn't right

[thetrout]

Not quite the same as a facility required in order to enable someone to travel, though? If it wasn't there, he wouldn't be physically *able* to travel. You could, even if it meant alighting at stations to use the convenience at the station.

That's a very interesting point. Which has just prompted me for something I didn't consider. Coach Services - Some of which do not have any means of accommodating a wheelchair. Although I understand this is going to become a legal requirement from 2020?

The toilet based scenario was more a generic issue outside of transport for places such as shopping malls etc. But the concept of baby changing facilities being provided in accessible toilets as is the case in many places was the comparison I was using there.

I think the basic basic bottom line we should all agree on is that if someone is using such a space when they really ought not to be, then they shouldn't kick up a fuss when someone with a genuine need wants to use the space.

[thetrout]

The problem is that there are far more pushchair users than wheelchair users. There could easily be times where the wheelchair user might not be able to board any bus....and that just isn't right

That's effectively what I was trying to say...

[TonyK]

Not often we see this forum and Mumsnet having the same debate:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1648418-Interesting-Bus-Company-on-wheelchair-Pram-spaces

Even less frequently that we see train buffs subscribing to Mumsnet, especially when the topic concerns buses.

[TonyK]

Is 'tort law' something that requires Peter Andre to pop up on my TV every 5 minutes, selling the blasted things (baked Alaska anyone?) for ^4 in Iceland ??

Nah. It's wot we woz tort at school.

There appears to be a lot of talk of 'entitlement' over there. I wish there was a solicitor on there that could explain their legal entitlement!

I'm not even a barrack-room solicitor, although I do a good line in "entitlement" (or more often lack thereof). However, I am prepared to spout sh shout spite on behalf of anyone who feels hard done by for a bargain 50 guineas per hour, with discounts for droit de seigneur (terms and conditions apply).

What we do see here is that, at least in terms of public transport, there is little by way of entitlement, but much by way of opportunity to form a contract to be carried, despite the various athletic competitions performed at the 2012 Paralympic games.

Discus.