Bus discrimination case

[whole diary]

[grahame]

An update on the case, from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

First said its drivers needed to know "what they are legally required to do". The case is expected to last three days at the Court of Appeal.

Having read back through the thread, listened to the news and reminded myself where I have heard of Doug Palley before, I await the outcome with interest and will probably comment, with great care, in the fullness of time.

[Rhydgaled]

On my bus ride this morning, I was joined by two wheelchair users and a pushchair . The pushchair boarded first, and was parked in the wheelchair space. When the first wheelchair user boarded, the owner of the pushchair moved it into the cycle/pushchair space (not officially titled such, but I have seen it used for both purposes). When the second wheelchair user wanted to board, the driver had a word, mentioning how long it would be to the next bus etc. It appeared the second wheelchair user then agreed to use the pushchair/cycle space, so the pushchair owner had to come forward again to fold the pushchair and put it in the luggage rack. So the bus continued on its way with a wheelchair in both the wheelchair and cycle/pushchair spaces.

[LiskeardRich]

Although the case is wheelchair and pushchair battling for 1 space
What happens if more wheelchair users want a service than the bus allows on a route that has perhaps a 2 hourly service for example?
Is their protocol in place so wheelchair doesn't have to wait 2 hours?

[grahame]

I await with interest the outcome of the court case.   Has other news pushed this out of the papers, or is the case taking longer than expected?

Is their protocol in place so wheelchair doesn't have to wait 2 hours?

Equality question - is there a protocol in place so that others don't have to wait 2 hours? 

[John R]

I'm sure Doug Paulley would have posted the result on his website or twitter account had it been published. Whilst I have a degree of sympathy with his case, from information freely in the public domain the volume of freedom of information requests that he makes (around 3 or 4 a month) tends to lessen my enthusiasm for his cause.

[ChrisB]

Is their protocol in place so wheelchair doesn't have to wait 2 hours?

Equality question - is there a protocol in place so that others don't have to wait 2 hours? 

Spot on - it is a question of pure equality. If the bus is full & am ambulant person has to await the next bus, then a wheelchair can be expected to do the same. Pushchairs however, even though a number of users think they do, do NOT give the owner any priority. Most if not all are somewhat cfollapsible, and the owner can be expected to do this without howls of protest.

[Red Squirrel]

Is their protocol in place so wheelchair doesn't have to wait 2 hours?

Equality question - is there a protocol in place so that others don't have to wait 2 hours? 

Spot on - it is a question of pure equality. If the bus is full & am ambulant person has to await the next bus, then a wheelchair can be expected to do the same. Pushchairs however, even though a number of users think they do, do NOT give the owner any priority. Most if not all are somewhat cfollapsible, and the owner can be expected to do this without howls of protest.

I think that's a reasonable stance to take as long as the pushchair is being used solely to transport cider back from the offie.

It's a bit less reasonable if the pushchair has an infant in it. Single-handedly extracting a non-ambulent child from a pushchair, securing the child (how?) and then folding the pushchair is not a task to be taken lightly, particularly if the bus driver decides that now would be a good time to see if their bus can out-drag a Bugatti Veyron.

[ChrisB]

Agreed - but disability campaigners would soon put you right. The wheelchair user has no choice but to be using that in order to get around - the parent always has different choices

[grahame]

It's a bit less reasonable if the pushchair has an infant in it. ...

Agreed - but disability campaigners would soon put you right. The wheelchair user has no choice but to be using that in order to get around - the parent always has different choices

What is reasonable and what is the law aren't always the same.   Further "reasonable" differs in one person's view to another's, and "equality" is almost impossible to define when you start with inherently varied inputs.  There is a school of thought that suggests that a young person in a wheeled vehicle who is conveyed in that because (s)he cannot walk is every much as mobility disabled as a middle aged or old person in a wheeled vehicle for the same reasons.

The solution should be sense, understanding, and an ability of people to work together to sort these things out when problems arise.  And it usually is; we have a couple of friends who are wheelchair bound and almost always a word and a smile from the work wonders and people want to help.  Indeed, it probably works far better than demanding of a person in charge that (s)he clear people out of the way for you.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

Both Go-Ahead (Oxford Bus) and Stagecoach, the main Oxfordshire buses, have very clear prominent notices informing pushchair owners that Wheelchair users have rights over pushchairs and pushchair users must vacate a wheelchair space if it is subsequently required for a wheelchair.
Oxford has a good proportion of wheelchair users and bus use forms a much higher proportion of transport than in many other areas. I have witnessed a wheelchair being refused entrance onto a bus because no wheel chair space was available and the bus probably also had a very high number of able-bodied standing regular travellers. The wheelchair user had to return to the shelter and await the next bus. Not so much a problem however in Oxford where bus frequency is every few minutes on the major routes into town.

[LiskeardRich]

Is their protocol in place so wheelchair doesn't have to wait 2 hours?

Equality question - is there a protocol in place so that others don't have to wait 2 hours? 

Spot on - it is a question of pure equality. If the bus is full & am ambulant person has to await the next bus, then a wheelchair can be expected to do the same. Pushchairs however, even though a number of users think they do, do NOT give the owner any priority. Most if not all are somewhat cfollapsible, and the owner can be expected to do this without howls of protest.

The pushchair we had when the girls were younger would take up more space folded than unfolded. The surface area when folded was larger than the area taken up by it unfolded.
We never took it on a bus though

[TonyK]

Both Go-Ahead (Oxford Bus) and Stagecoach, the main Oxfordshire buses, have very clear prominent notices informing pushchair owners that Wheelchair users have rights over pushchairs and pushchair users must vacate a wheelchair space if it is subsequently required for a wheelchair.
Oxford has a good proportion of wheelchair users and bus use forms a much higher proportion of transport than in many other areas. I have witnessed a wheelchair being refused entrance onto a bus because no wheel chair space was available and the bus probably also had a very high number of able-bodied standing regular travellers. The wheelchair user had to return to the shelter and await the next bus. Not so much a problem however in Oxford where bus frequency is every few minutes on the major routes into town.

I would suppose that those already on the bus have the edge over those not yet in that favoured position, able bodied or otherwise. It is possible that someone may have got off the bus a stop early to make way for the wheelchair user, but equally possible that the strapper-hangers at the back would have been utterly unaware of the situation unfolding at the front door. As you say, less of a problem in somewhere with decent public transport than it is in Bristol.

[LiskeardRich]

I was looking today at a maximum capacity sign on an optare solo.
It said 24 standing or 18 standing plus 1 wheelchair.

There was 21 standing passengers on the bus, so the driver can take 3 more standing passengers but can't take a wheelchair if my understanding is correct.

If he was to come to a stop with 3 passengers able to stand and a wheelchair user, can he take the 3 standing passengers and refuse the wheelchair?

Is that equality or would he have to refuse the passengers who could have stranded to treat all equally?

[Rhydgaled]

I was looking today at a maximum capacity sign on an optare solo.
It said 24 standing or 18 standing plus 1 wheelchair.

There was 21 standing passengers on the bus, so the driver can take 3 more standing passengers but can't take a wheelchair if my understanding is correct.

If he was to come to a stop with 3 passengers able to stand and a wheelchair user, can he take the 3 standing passengers and refuse the wheelchair?

Is that equality or would he have to refuse the passengers who could have stranded to treat all equally?

Good question. Pretty sure though that the stated wheelchair capacity would have been exceeded on my trip the other day with a second wheelchair in the bike/pushchair space (though I didn't check the maximum capacity sign).

[TonyK]

I was thinking of taking a lawn mower for service on the bus - not a sit-on model. I wondered how this might pan out...