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Author Topic: Track incidents at Southend and Whyteleafe  (Read 19914 times)
JayMac
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« on: September 05, 2013, 23:21:07 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Quote
A railway worker has been suspended after going on to train tracks in Essex to help a disabled woman who had fallen off the platform edge.

The member of platform staff at Southend Central station was one of a number of people who went to the elderly woman's aid on 28 August.

The tracks were clear by the time the next train arrived at the station.

A spokesman for train company c2c said its employee had been suspended while an investigation took place.

He said: "We have strict rules regarding the safety procedure for the quickest way of stopping trains in an emergency. An employee has been suspended while our investigation into this incident continues."

'Absolutely diabolical'

Bob Crow, general secretary of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, said the decision to suspend the worker was "diabolical".

"What did they expect him to do - just stand by and watch?" he said. "All this person did was what anyone with any common sense would have done. He is one of our members and we will be supporting him. This is absolutely diabolical."

The nearest train was about a quarter of a mile away when the people were on the tracks. The driver did not have to apply emergency brakes.

An East of England Ambulance spokeswoman said paramedics were called at about 18:15 BST to treat a disabled woman, aged in her early 70s, who had fallen off the platform.

She added the woman, a wheelchair user, was taken to hospital for checks and was not critically injured.
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 10:59:29 »

Procedures are there to be followed.

Assuming the suspension is with pay, this is correct procedure in any safety-critical situation where procedures aren't followed.

There's not yet any mention of discipline procedure being applied and the suspension is to allow an investigation to take place.

Bob Crow has previous in jumping guns
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lordgoata
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 11:58:50 »

There is also human nature to take into account. You are not supposed to run into a burning building to try and rescue people, or intervene in a fight, but people do. Its very hard to sit back and do nothing when your human nature takes over.

Could you have stood there and done nothing because procedures said otherwise ? I'm not sure I could.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 12:11:40 »

indeed, and that's what the investigation will explore.

There has to be one, otherwise there might be a next time & that train might be a lot closer than 0.25 of a mile away....
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JayMac
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 12:51:38 »

Something of a sinister twist. I hope this proves to be unfounded:

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Quote
Southend station wheelchair fall: Was woman pushed on to track?

Transport police are investigating whether a woman in a wheelchair was pushed on to railway tracks.

The 71-year-old woman from Benfleet was at Southend Central station, Essex, with a friend on 28 August when her wheelchair rolled off the platform.

A railway worker who helped rescue her was suspended amid suggestions he may have breached safety regulations by going on to the track.

The woman suffered a fractured hip in the fall.

Det Con David Bishop of British Transport Police said the woman remained at Southend General Hospital.

He said police wanted to speak to anybody who may have seen the woman fall, or seen her in the moments leading up to the incident.

The suspended member of platform staff was one of a number of people who went to the woman's aid.

'Safety procedure'

The tracks were clear by the time the next train arrived at the station.

A spokesman for train company c2c said its employee had been suspended while an investigation took place.

He said: "We have strict rules regarding the safety procedure for the quickest way of stopping trains in an emergency.

"An employee has been suspended while our investigation into this incident continues."

Bob Crow, general secretary of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, said the decision to suspend the worker was "diabolical".

"What did they expect him to do - just stand by and watch?" he asked.
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Oxman
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 12:54:05 »

The worker would not have been expected to stand by and do nothing - he/she would have been expected to follow the safety procedure which all platform staff are taught. First thing you do is contact the signaller and get a block on all lines - all trains in the area would be stopped by signals or an emergency NRN (National Radio Network) call. Then its safe for all concerned to get down on the track. You should not put yourself or others in danger by jumping straight down on to the track.

The fact is that the safety procedures such as making an emergency call, although widely taught, are not needed very often, which results in some staff following their instinct rather than their training. A suspension to allow an investigation is the correct procedure.

Given everything that Mr Crow preaches about safety, I am surprised he has jumped so quickly to criticise C2C.  Roll Eyes
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2013, 15:21:23 »

Hang on a minute.  Isn't that prejudging what may or may not have happened.  We don't know if the staff member did call the control centre or not.
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2013, 17:53:36 »

First thing you do is contact the signaller and get a block on all lines - all trains in the area would be stopped by signals or an emergency NRN (National Radio Network) call.

Just a point of information, but NRN is no longer in use in southern England, and is gradually being switched off in the rest of Great Britain.

Trains operating on the Southend line would be using GSM-R (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway.).

And as anside, even when NRN was operational, C2C didn't use it - when the class 357 trains were delivered they had CSR (Cab Secure Radio) (Cab Secure Radio) instead.
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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2013, 17:58:51 »

Given everything that Mr Crow preaches about safety, I am surprised he has jumped so quickly to criticise C2C.  Roll Eyes

Hang on a minute.  Isn't that prejudging what may or may not have happened.  We don't know if the staff member did call the control centre or not.

Quite right S&T (Signalling and Telegraph): a lot of rushing to judgement based on the reporting of the news media, which is always unwise and not our usual practice, I think, on this forum.

On a purely procedural point, in most walks of life, suspension with full pay is the usual way in which staff deemed to have been involved in a serious incident are treated and it is a neutral action.  Sadly often seen as a sign of guilt and Mr Crow's knee jerk reaction adds to that impression.

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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2013, 18:15:50 »

Hang on a minute.  Isn't that prejudging what may or may not have happened.  We don't know if the staff member did call the control centre or not.

Well said.  My guess is the suspension is a "neutral act" on the part of the company it is not to be taken as being indicative of guilt, its purely to allow an investigation to take place, there are certain processes and procedures required under ROGS almost certainly D & A testing, also if there is a Police investigation this member of staff may be a key witness
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2013, 20:39:32 »

I understand they may wish to take the member of staff off safety critical duties while they investigate, but could the staff member have been put on non-safety critical duties, such as general customer assistance without needing to "suspend" them  Huh
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2013, 21:02:15 »

I presume the person in the wheel chair is very grateful to the member of staff who used his/her initiative and common sense.  One can go on about rules but there may not have been to contact the signaller with a train approaching (400 yards away according to the press).
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Oxman
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 00:28:23 »

Steady on chaps. In no way was I prejudging the case - that's why I said suspension was the right approach - to allow a full investigation.

What I tried to do was establish what should have happened and why, therefore, an investigation may be required. I was particularly hacked off by Mr Crow's hypothetical question - "what do they expect him to do - stand around and do nothing?" (or words to that effect). I was trying to point out that the expectation was that he would indeed be expected to do something, and that would be to do as he had been trained to do, and firstly make the area safe in the manner I described. If a train had been approaching, he should have run towards the train and shown a stop signal - both arms raised vertically in the air or, at night, a red light or a white light waved vigorously.

At no time did I suggest what had actually happened - I only suggested what I believe should have happened and what might, therefore, be the basis of the investigation. I also suggested mitigating factors.

The purpose of my post was to provide some background as to why C2C might wish to conduct an investigation and to highlight the approach taken by Mr Crow, which some may think was opportunistic and two-faced, although it's not for me to say.

I have re-read my post and I cannot see how it can seen as pre-judging the situation. It makes no assertions whatsoever. As an ex-railwayman who conducted a number of safety investigations, I would be the last person to pre-judge such a case. But I do have an understanding of the background and apologise if my attempt to convey this was misunderstood.
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JayMac
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2013, 05:04:51 »

With my moderator hat on, I have no great concern about what has been posted in this thread. It is, in my opinion, perfectly fine to debate the issues and give opinion based on personal experience, or to give one's own view on how you would've acted in a similar situation.

Criticism of the staff member, or of c2c, would be unfounded however, as we don't have all the facts. However, I've seen none of that in this thread.

Bob Crow is fair game though!*  Tongue Wink Grin

My personal take, as someone who doesn't work on the railways, (4 months agency work in a non safety critical role doesn't really count) is that I would probably have attempted a rescue, quickly taking into account my surroundings - is there a train approaching? is there a 3rd rail? who can assist? - and so on. Yes, I may have been putting myself in danger by doing so, but to stand by and do nothing and then see someone injured or killed would be very hard to deal with afterward.



*That is personal opinion of course.  Wink
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 20:48:38 by bignosemac » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2013, 05:50:23 »

At least half a dozen moderators / admins have seen this thread and if any one of us had concerns they would have been expressed on our "behind the counter" board, or acted in public.  The 'metrics' of this are such that we'll tend to be over responsive - so the inaction is a blessing from lots of different people.

The story continues ...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alan-chittock-hero-railway-worker-2257263?

Now some general comment with a "personal view" label.  Where something extraordinary, and as serious as being an incident which could have lead to loss of life, happens, it's correct to take a careful and analytic look back and see what can be learned.   And that means gathering data from all concerned ... with all concerned being treated in such a way that they are not distracted from that data gathering.  That may mean taking them off normal duties / all duties as they may well be shaken - and "the system"'s going to err on the side of safety and has to react quickly.   It's probably a good idea for press releases covering such a process to make it clear that this is standard practise, and doesn't suggested either endorsement or criticism of anyone concerned.

Looking back at situations that have come up on the forum here in the past, I'm struck by how often initial reactions suggest a different background to what turns out to have happened, and remind us that each case is individual and worthy of the investigations which - in some cases - are utterly frustrating to the travelling public.
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