More North-West Electrification

[whole diary]

[TonyK]

Back to Windermere and reading the press release I am surprised that the estimated cot is only ^16 million - but this maybe (as someone has already mentioned I believe) the power supply issues are not as complicated as other potential projects.

Probably right. It's about 13 miles, and single track. It won't be heavily used - passenger numbers are around 300,000 per year, or about a third of the Severn Beach line. It may be sufficient to simply splice it into the power supply on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line). Probably, electrification would see the end of its status as a mainly shuttle service. You wouldn't want to use a new EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) just for a 20-minute each way shuttle with a 20-minute layover at the end.

[John R]

If the intent was to use it as a shuttle then it wouldn't be being wired. The main benefit from a passenger perspective is the retention (and enhancement) of through services, and that's the driving force behind the announcement.

[onthecushions]

Windermere ticks the wiring boxes in that:

It can share an emu fleet.

It has a 25kV feeder station at Natland, just South of Oxenhome, so power isn't a problem. (This is near the Hutton supergrid compound.)

The multiplier effect is high; 10miles 16ch of wiring eliminates c85 mile diesel workings from Manchester.

Operationally, it probably allows Windermere trains to be stopping, freeing longer distance services.

There's presumably a market for better (speed and capacity) services and also political support in the region.

etc etc.

The Joker in the wider electrification pack is 3rd rail upgrades, where it seems that 750V replacement costs the same or more than new 25kV and lacks the running cost savings. Hence we may well see the outer parts of the Southern system move to 25kV, where it is simpler to install but nett savings will be greatest (and positive). I suspect that we'll see Pirbright Junction - Weymouth go 25kV, then Woking - Portsmouth and Redhill - Brighton. Now that rigid bar catenary seems accepted, low tunnels won't be a problem and Merseyrail would be a likely candidate for 25kV as its renewal costs would be less and potential greater.

For us in (F)GW^▸ (Great Western) territory, wiring timescales may depend on how long the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s can be spun out and whether diesel IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) can work well enough.


OTC

[BerkshireBugsy]

OTC you made mention on "rigid bar cantenery" there which is a phrase I've not come across before.

It ay seem a stupid question but does this mean what is implied ? That (put simply ) the cable which feeds the power cars is not sprung?

Is this a recent acceptance ? Woud this had removed the requirement to alter bridges on (for example) the Westbury line through newbury?

[Rhydgaled]

OTC you made mention on "rigid bar cantenery" there which is a phrase I've not come across before.

It ay seem a stupid question but does this mean what is implied ? That (put simply ) the cable which feeds the power cars is not sprung?

Is this a recent acceptance ? Woud this had removed the requirement to alter bridges on (for example) the Westbury line through newbury?

It isn't a new idea, it is already in use. The description says that there is no overhead wire/cable, instead there is an overhead conductor rail. From the image it does appear to be sprung though. Perhaps for tunnels an unsprug overhead conductor rail is envisiaged???

[eightf48544]

The Highland Chieftain beats the Aberdeen service by a couple of miles now the Bathgate line is electrified.

Sorry must have phrased the question wrongly I meant a diesel service which runs under the wires all the way from start to finish and doesn'rt stray off wired tracks even in its depots.

[stuving]

It isn't a new idea, it is already in use. The description says that there is no overhead wire/cable, instead there is an overhead conductor rail. From the image it does appear to be sprung though. Perhaps for tunnels an unsprug overhead conductor rail is envisiaged???

More common names for it are conductor rail or beam, and its main use is in tunnels. In most cases it's really a continuous clamp that holds the conductor wire, which can thus be continuous with catenary support and can be replaced when worn.

There was a short exchange about it recently in the Reading Station thread from http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6405.msg134616#msg134616, with a link to an article that has since vanished. This one http://www.therailengineer.com/2013/06/29/conductor-beam-collaboration-and-innovation/ is still there, though.

[grahame]

The Highland Chieftain beats the Aberdeen service by a couple of miles now the Bathgate line is electrified.

Sorry must have phrased the question wrongly I meant a diesel service which runs under the wires all the way from start to finish and doesn'rt stray off wired tracks even in its depots.

I ... wondered ... if that was really the question.   Not sure about depots, though.

Isn't there a King's Cross to Glasgow service that's run by an HST^▸ (High Speed Train)?  Or does that just go to Edinburgh or even just to Newcastle these days?   But I wouldn't know which depot such trains run from, and it's possible that the next journey on the diagram then goes off-wire.

There are a number of diagrams, I believe, where a diesel train is running on electrified lines for the entire passenger carrying part of the diagram.   That's not what you asked either, but is very frustrating to those people who wish to see more / longer trains on non-electrified lines.

[paul7575]

There was a short exchange about it recently in the Reading Station thread from http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6405.msg134616#msg134616, with a link to an article that has since vanished.

It's still there if you scroll down the page to the June edition.  The only difference to the other 'single story' version is that the online magazine has better photos...

Paul

[stuving]

Odd - I found the June edition, but the article had literally vanished: those pages were blank. Maybe it's one of those browser-specific problems, or something.

[onthecushions]

OTC you made mention on "rigid bar cantenery" there which is a phrase I've not come across before.

It ay seem a stupid question but does this mean what is implied ? That (put simply ) the cable which feeds the power cars is not sprung?

Is this a recent acceptance ? Woud this had removed the requirement to alter bridges on (for example) the Westbury line through newbury?

http://www.therailengineer.com/2013/06/29/conductor-beam-collaboration-and-innovation/


For interest, the normal rail top to contact wire height is 4700mm

OTC

[brompton rail]

The Highland Chieftain beats the Aberdeen service by a couple of miles now the Bathgate line is electrified.

Sorry must have phrased the question wrongly I meant a diesel service which runs under the wires all the way from start to finish and doesn'rt stray off wired tracks even in its depots.

I ... wondered ... if that was really the question.   Not sure about depots, though.

Isn't there a King's Cross to Glasgow service that's run by an HST^▸ (High Speed Train)?  Or does that just go to Edinburgh or even just to Newcastle these days?   But I wouldn't know which depot such trains run from, and it's possible that the next journey on the diagram then goes off-wire.

There are a number of diagrams, I believe, where a diesel train is running on electrified lines for the entire passenger carrying part of the diagram.   That's not what you asked either, but is very frustrating to those people who wish to see more / longer trains on non-electrified lines.

Trouble is that East Coast have a number of such diagrams where an HST runs completely under the wires. There is at least one Edinburgh to Kings Cross, a KX to York return trip and at least one Leeds - KX service.

However there are no electric trains to operate these, and even if East Coast wanted to make them electric hauled by removing the power cars and buying an electric loco, there aren't any of them suitable for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). This would only free up a few HST power cars anyway and not trains.

IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) may resolve this, but by then Great Western will also have IEPs and perhaps a few spare HSTs.

[Timmer]

Sorry must have phrased the question wrongly I meant a diesel service which runs under the wires all the way from start to finish and doesn'rt stray off wired tracks even in its depots.

Off hand I know that the 8.30 EDB-KGX, 15.00 and 17.00 KGX-EDB Mon-Fri would fall into this category.

[John R]

Remember that the Mk 4 fleet was reduced by 1 after the two accidents at Hatfield and Great Heck, so they've been short for a long time.

The most obvious example is the Birmingham to Scotland WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)) service which is currently run almost exclusively by Voyagers, although this will change come December. Though I think the overall "diesel under wires" mileage will be similar as the ones that remain Voyager operated will be doubled up.

[paul7575]

Sorry must have phrased the question wrongly I meant a diesel service which runs under the wires all the way from start to finish and doesn'rt stray off wired tracks even in its depots.

Off hand I know that the 8.30 EDB-KGX, 15.00 and 17.00 KGX-EDB Mon-Fri would fall into this category.

You have to consider the train's whole day diagram though, doesn't the 0830 EDB-KGX return to Aberdeeen?  I think the main point with the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) is that last time they increased the service patterns HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) were the only thing available, although they did toy with the 5 180s that are now with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) didn't they?

At least their replacements will all be bi-mode...  (Always assuming Rhydgaled approves it...)