Trainspotters "banned" following vandalism at Cheltenham Spa railway station

[whole diary]

[LiskeardRich]

Byelaw 13 is the only one I can think of that would be relevant. Of course 'loitering' would be someone without a ticket as by having a ticket you in effect have permission from the relevant operator to be there.

Not sure that's the definition of loitering.....

13. Unauthorised access and loitering
 
(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

(An Authorised person is any employee or agent of an Operator. Or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) Constable (not PCSO), (I note that NeR are not an operator so as such would not be Authorised people to use Byelaws.))

Yup, that covers it.

So what can a PCSO do, they can't arrest you, they can't ask you to leave. I've always wondered this about PCSOs.

[ChrisB]

(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

(An Authorised person is any employee or agent of an Operator. Or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) Constable (not PCSO), (I note that NeR are not an operator so as such would not be Authorised people to use Byelaws.))

They operate stations, which is being referred to here.

[Lee]

Is it significant that it's the same Robert Webb involved in both the 2013 and 2014 article incidents?

[SDS]

(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

(An Authorised person is any employee or agent of an Operator. Or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) Constable (not PCSO), (I note that NeR are not an operator so as such would not be Authorised people to use Byelaws.))

They operate stations, which is being referred to here.

NeR staff still cant use byelaws against you as they are not an operator and are not listed in schedule 1.

[Red Squirrel]

Is it significant that it's the same Robert Webb involved in both the 2013 and 2014 article incidents?

...and what was David Mitchell doing at the time?

[thetrout]

I've resisted the urge to comment in this thread but a few things I am now going to have to point out (Dog+Bone and all that )

With the case here and the chap was asked why he had not caught an earlier train to Gloucester. If he didn't have an Advance ticket then I see no reason why he should've taken an earlier train. Indeed if you 'had to take the first train on arriving at the station, there would be no First Class Lounge at Paddington Station as you wouldn't need one!

I might turn up at Taunton Station and be offered the option of the 21:15 or 21:29 Services to Bath Spa. I have a flexible ticket. Using the logic from the staff members as per the newspaper article, I have to catch the 21:15... Yet it makes no difference as my connection at Bath Spa isn't until 23:38, so by this logic I choose the 21:29 service as it's a slower train and I can sit and do work for longer time uninterrupted.


With the issue of signing into the station for Photography Purposes, I must admit I've never done it... If I'm waiting for my train and I decide I want to film it arriving into the station or take a few snaps of the station itself. Then why would you bother signing in if you're then going to get on that train? You'd need to sign out and then not leave the station until your train arrives? That defies my logic...

According to this article on the Avon and Somerset Police website here: https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/advice/neighbourhood-community/taking-photographs-in-a-public-place/

Taking photos in a public place is not illegal. The only time an offence is committed is if the photographs being taken are considered to be indecent.

and further to this:

Please note: No one has the right to ask the photographer to stop, to ask for a copy of the photos or to force them to delete the photographs, unless the images that have been taken are clearly indecent.

My emphasis in Bold. I have fallen foul of this before many years ago. When I took a photograph of my ex partner I got the back of another girls head in the shot. I can only gather it was her father who demanded I delete the photo and hand over the camera. I refused on both counts. Eventually I deleted the photo as the argument was getting tiresome and then ran Recuva on the SD Card when I got home to recover the picture.

Needless to say when I gave it my Ex partner it ended up on Facebook and through tagging of my ex' friends as well eventually this guy somehow managed to find it. What happened next is best left unsaid I think... However I must point out I was 17, young, immature, rebellious and wanted to get "one up" on this guy... Oh and using a real case for Data Recovery in my College Coursework too... So if asked "Was it worth it" I'm going to say yes to that one..........


Anyhow, it's worth carrying a copy of that extract from the A&S Police website in your back pocket if you're a photographer. Any threats by a member of the public to "Call the police" will be quickly nipped in the bud.

[SDS]

Even ACPO state that photography isn't illegal in a public place and go to say that no one including police has the right to delete any photos unless a court order has been issued.

ACPO guidance is as follows:
● There are no powers prohibiting the taking of photographs, film or digital images in a public place. Therefore, members of the public and press should not be prevented from doing so.
● We need to cooperate with the media and amateur photographers. They play a vital role as their images help us identify criminals.
● We must acknowledge that citizen journalism is a feature of modern life and police officers are now photographed and filmed more than ever.
● Unnecessarily restricting photography, whether for the casual tourist or professional is unacceptable and it undermines public confidence in the police service.
● Once an image has been recorded, police can only seize the film or camera at the scene on the strictly limited grounds that it is suspected to contain evidence of a crime. Once the photographer has left the scene, police can only seize images with a court order. In the case of the media, the usual practice is to apply for a court order under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act for production of the photograph or film footage.
If someone who is distressed or bereaved asks for police to intervene to prevent members of the media filming or photographing them, police may pass on their request but have no power to prevent or restrict media activity. This should be understood as a specific limitation on the powers available under Section 43 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

[ChrisB]

But a station isn't seen in law as a public place.

[Tim]

So what can a PCSO do, they can't arrest you, they can't ask you to leave. I've always wondered this about PCSOs.

They can't ask you to leave?  Are you sure.  Surely they have the right to ask you to leave and the other person has a right to ignore the request (and vice versa)

[LiskeardRich]

So what can a PCSO do, they can't arrest you, they can't ask you to leave. I've always wondered this about PCSOs.

They can't ask you to leave?  Are you sure.  Surely they have the right to ask you to leave and the other person has a right to ignore the request (and vice versa)

Byelaw 13 states that you must leave when asked to by a police office followed by Not PCSO in brackets. Seems to me they have no power and are there for a visible presence only. A private security guard has more power!

[Network SouthEast]

(An Authorised person is any employee or agent of an Operator. Or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) Constable (not PCSO), (I note that NeR are not an operator so as such would not be Authorised people to use Byelaws.))

This is not quite correct.

ANY police constable can enforce Byelaws, not just those employed by BTP. Although in reality it's only BTP employees that know them, that doesn't stop other police forces from enforcing them.

BTP PSCOs have also been authorised to enforce the Byelaws by all Operators.

So what can a PCSO do, they can't arrest you, they can't ask you to leave. I've always wondered this about PCSOs.

They can't ask you to leave?  Are you sure.  Surely they have the right to ask you to leave and the other person has a right to ignore the request (and vice versa)

Of course BTP PSCOs can ask you to leave. And don't forget that by continuing to breach Byelaws they have the power (along with police constables and authorised persons (i.e. staff)) confered by Byelaw 24.2.ii to remove the person(s) committing the breach from the railway, using reasonable force.

Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised
person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails
to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised
person may be removed from the railway by an authorised
person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in
addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these
Byelaws.

Not wanting to drag this thread further off-topic, but it is worth pointing out that BTP PSCOs have slightly more powers available to them than their Home Office police force counterparts. For those that don't know, the powers that a PSCO has available to them is up to each police force. BTP has selected almost every power (bar 2) that are available for PSCOs. For example, those that are observant will note that BTP PSCOs carry handcuffs with them (for detaining suspects for up to 30 minutes pending the arrival of a constable), whereas (as far as I know), apart from Gwent Police, no other police force takes up this option. A PSCO has to carry a card around with them whilst on duty explaining what their powers are, so next time you see one, have a friendly chat and ask them if you can see their card.

[Network SouthEast]

Byelaw 13 states that you must leave when asked to by a police office followed by Not PCSO in brackets. Seems to me they have no power and are there for a visible presence only. A private security guard has more power!

No it doesn't. Byelaw 13 says this:

13. Unauthorised access and loitering
 
(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a
notice:
 (i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified
category of person only, except where he belongs to that
specified category.
 
(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised
person.

[Network SouthEast]

Before any more nonsense is written about the Byelaws, the National Rail Byelaws (which apply to all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) except London Overground) can be viewed here.

[LiskeardRich]

Byelaw 13 states that you must leave when asked to by a police office followed by Not PCSO in brackets. Seems to me they have no power and are there for a visible presence only. A private security guard has more power!

No it doesn't. Byelaw 13 says this:

13. Unauthorised access and loitering
 
(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a
notice:
 (i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified
category of person only, except where he belongs to that
specified category.
 
(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised
person.

Earlier in the thread its been quote from another poster who an authorised person, and implied that this was from Byelaw 13.

(An Authorised person is any employee or agent of an Operator. Or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) Constable (not PCSO), (I note that NeR are not an operator so as such would not be Authorised people to use Byelaws.))

Within your link it states at the end pages the definition of an authorised third party as

authorised person^ means: 
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who: (a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or (b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or 
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;

As a PCSO is not a constable, nor an employee or agent of an operator, we can assume they do not have the required authority, unless they have gained individual authority from the operator which is unlikely from personal experience.

[Network SouthEast]

In a previous post above, I said that all Operators have authorised BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) PSCOs as authorised persons.