Trainspotters "banned" following vandalism at Cheltenham Spa railway station

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Private property to which the public have an implied right of access.

Proof please

Regulations governing the access granted to the public to railway property are Railway Byelaws.

And in there, it governs access only for travelling. NOT for enthusiasts. So if not permitted in the byelaws, they have to be given specific [permission to be there. Unless you can show me where in the byelaws it permits enthusiasts?.....proof again please.

Using the Byelaws to stop it is heavy handed and inappropriate.

your opinion. Nothing more.

[Southern Stag]

Private property to which the public have an implied right of access.

Proof please

Um, the fact the Railway Industry have issued guidelines to enthusiasts which makes clear they are welcome implies that they have a right of access. If the right of access only extended to those travelling then you'd expect to see ticket barriers at the entrance to NR^» (Network Rail - home page) property.

[grahame]

Private property to which the public have an implied right of access.

Proof please

British Transport Police and Network Rail seem to think there's an implied right of access, because here's a poster talking about withdrawing it ...

Regulations governing the access granted to the public to railway property are Railway Byelaws.

And in there, it governs access only for travelling. NOT for enthusiasts. So if not permitted in the byelaws, they have to be given specific [permission to be there. Unless you can show me where in the byelaws it permits enthusiasts?.....proof again please.

And that poster talks about access for other reasons ... and not only for travelling.

[ChrisB]

OK, fair comment - but here's what Network Rail say....

When you arrive at a station, please let the staff at the Network Rail Reception Desk know that you are on the station. This will help keep station staff informed so that they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there.

You may require a platform ticket to allow access to platforms.

This obviously refers to the stations they also manage, but as they own 99% of all stations, TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are entitled I'm sure to require the same applies....and letting staff know or signing in is pretty much the same thing.

If the staff feel they are too busy during extreme weight of travellers, that is a reason to refuse. It is private property, and I'm sure the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) would remove anyone without a permit to travel upon request.

[JayMac]

Person in the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) had a permit to travel, yet was still told he couldn't take photographs. The choice/timing of train he wanted to catch was also questioned.

TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) and their staff do indeed have a right of refusal for almost any activity on railway property. But any use of the Byelaws has to be proportionate and with justification. It is a very rocky road to go down to use those powers arbitrarily. Remember though, there is nothing in the Byelaws that requires people to sign in. It is a request, nothing more.

As for not having a permit to travel on railway property, that in itself cannot be justification. No one would be able to enter railway property to buy tickets, make a delivery, assist a disabled friend/relative, use a station with no facilities to buy tickets, and so on and so on.

Vilification of rail enthusiasts does the industry no favours whatsoever.

I took photos yesterday at five major stations (and one ickle one, where I was actually recording evidence of a crime). Did I sign in? Nope. Did I ask any staff member for permission? Nope. That's how I roll. 

[Tim]

It's private property - the owner/lessor has every right to insist on whatever regulations they want.

Your attitude is exactly why pax travel without tickets....

It's private property - correct
the owner/lessor has every right to insist on whatever regulations they want.  - that is clearly nonsense.   They would not be allowed to arbitrarily refuse access to Gypsies or wheelchair users or insist that religious headgear is removed would they?

But that is kind of irrelevant anyway.  There is a difference between insisting that people comply and actually having legal authority to enforce compliance.  Without that legal authority your "insistence" is no more than a request.   A TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) is perfectly entitled to request that spotters stay away, but that doesn't make the request justified or entitled to the respect which you seem to be granting to it

Your attitude is exactly why pax travel without tickets....
 how come?  there is no analogy.   Ticketless travel is an offence and there are laws specifically designed to deal with it.  A TOC is perfectly justified to stop ticketless travel provided it sticks to those rules.   There are no rules against buying a ticket, entering the platform area, hanging around for a while watching the trains (or drinking a coffee, reading a paper, taking some photos etc)  and catching a later train which is what happened in Cheltenham.   

Doing so is neither illegal nor morally wrong.  An attempt by those  in power to stop it is (regardless of whether they are legally entitled to) is worthy is ridicule, contempt and mockery as well as being a mind-bogglingly idiotically bad way to treat customers.

[grahame]

Vilification of rail enthusiasts does the industry no favours whatsoever.

I took photos yesterday at five major stations (and one ickle one, where I was actually recording evidence of a crime). Did I sign in? Nope. Did I ask any staff member for permission? Nope. That's how I roll. 

Provided that you're sensible about it, it's very rarely a problem ...  I have been stopped once, politely by a PCSO with BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) because I accidentally flashed (an apology, "I know it was an accident") and criticised very rudely indeed once by a trainspotter who accused me of using flash when he saw my picture on a forum.  Problem for him was that I hadn't used flash, and had he looked at near and far objects he would have seen they were equally lit.  Us rail supporters sometimes do ourselves no favours either

From Sunday ... just one from my travels.   Where was I 

[JayMac]

Cheltenham Spa! 

[SDS]

Byelaw 13 is the only one I can think of that would be relevant. Of course 'loitering' would be someone without a ticket as by having a ticket you in effect have permission from the relevant operator to be there.


13. Unauthorised access and loitering
 
(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a
notice:
 (i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that
specified category.
 
(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

(An Authorised person is any employee or agent of an Operator. Or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) Constable (not PCSO), (I note that NeR are not an operator so as such would not be Authorised people to use Byelaws.))

[JayMac]

Transcript of a call to the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police)...

"Hi, it's the DSM at Speltenham Char station. We have someone loitering."
"What's he doing?"
"He's taking photographs of trains."
"That's not illegal. Is he in a restricted area?"
"Er no, but we've asked him to leave."
"On what grounds?"
"Because it's busy, and although he has a ticket, he's chosen not to board a train to his destination yet."
"No grounds for us to attend. Goodbye."

 

[grahame]

I travelled last Sunday A - B - C - D.

Trains from A to B were running every couple of hours.   From B to C every 30 minutes. And from C to D every hour or so.   As my journey was a long one and I had heavy baggage, I reserved seats on the legs where that was possible - that's B to C and C to D.

I arrived at B - on time, and on the train suggested on my itinerary.  And from there, my onward reservation was not on the train that left around 15 minutes later, but on the following one, which connected at C onto the same onward train to D anyway. Note - this was a standard off-peak ticket valid on either train.  Knowing that trains can sometimes get delayed, and seeing plenty of space, and knowing it would not be overtaken, I travelled on the 15 minute after train.   But had I waited for the train officially recommended to to, would I have broken the "first available train" rule set by the officials at Cheltenham Spa according to reports in threads such as this?

[SDS]

Amended transcript of call to BTP^▸ (British Transport Police).

"BTP what ya want"
"Hi, it's the DSM at Wormwood Triangle station. We have someone looking dodgy."
"What's he doing?"
"Being dodgy and generally annoying, oh did I mention he's being dodgy and taking photographs of dodgy things."
"What things"
"Trains and People."
"That's not illegal. Is he in a restricted area?"
"Er no, but we've asked him to leave and he's refused to leave thus he is now tresspassing and in breach of byelaws."
"On what grounds?"
"Because it's busy and hes looking very dodgy like, and although he has a ticket, he's chosen not to board a train to his destination yet."
"Okay have any staff got involved"
"Yes James T Bloggs tried to get him to leave but had his picture taken"
"Okay we will send someone, our average attendance time is around 2 days is that okay?"
"Oh forget it"

[Chris from Nailsea]

In the morning, when I'm not quite so tired, I may consider doing a bit of my 'moving and merging' of these topics - but not until then. 

... and now, at a similarly silly o'clock, I have now moved and merged these topics into this ongoing discussion, in the interests of continuity and completeness, and ease of future reference.  Sorry for the delay in doing so. 

[trainer]

Sorry for the delay in doing so. 

No problem Chris.  We took some good photos while we waiting. 

[ChrisB]

Byelaw 13 is the only one I can think of that would be relevant. Of course 'loitering' would be someone without a ticket as by having a ticket you in effect have permission from the relevant operator to be there.

Not sure that's the definition of loitering.....

13. Unauthorised access and loitering
 
(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

(An Authorised person is any employee or agent of an Operator. Or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) Constable (not PCSO), (I note that NeR are not an operator so as such would not be Authorised people to use Byelaws.))

Yup, that covers it.