Trainspotters "banned" following vandalism at Cheltenham Spa railway station

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

'Fair dealing' has a meaning in law:

News reporting

Using material for the purpose of reporting current events is permitted provided that:

    The work is not a photograph.
    The source of the material is acknowledged.
    The amount of the material quoted is no more than is necessary for the purpose.


Source: UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Copyright Service

From the same website:

How much of a work can I use under fair dealing?

There is no simple formula or percentage that can be applied. You may have seen figures like ^up to 10%^ or ^no more than 400 words^ quoted in some publications, but such figures are at best a rough guide and can be misleading. What is acceptable will vary from one work to another.

In cases that have come to trial what is clear is that it is the perceived importance of the copied content rather than simply the quantity that counts. Judges hearing such cases often have to make an objective decision on whether the use is justified or excessive.

UK Copyright Service

As with many aspects of law there it is rarely black and white. Just many shades of grey. Ultimately it is for a judge to decide, but as yet, in the case of myself and other forum members quoting entire articles from online news sources, things have never got that far. I don't think we've ever had a request from a copyright holder for a news article quoted on the forum to be removed.

Suffice to say, if such a request were ever made, the material concerned would be removed. That's pragmatism rather than an admission of wrong doing.

[ChrisB]

I'm not sure you'd face any problem while the whole news article was to be found on the original website - the problem might occur if it were amended (and we failed to correct) - especially where it might have been amended for legal reasons.

There could also be problems if it what was copied was copyright - e.g. a whole commentary piece by an author, rather than a news article.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Western Daily Press:

Trainspotters not welcome during Festival

Most people probably consider trainspotting as one of the more innocent hobbies.

But staff at Cheltenham railway station have made it abundantly clear the train enthusiasts are not welcome ^ at least not during race week.

Robert Webb, who has been indulging in the hobby since he was little, said he was ordered to turn off his camera while filming passing trains from the platform this week.

The 36-year-old, who lists freight trains and special services among his favourite sights, was shocked at the hard-line stance. "I bought a ticket to travel to Gloucester so I thought I'd go to the station an hour or so beforehand so I could film the trains," he said. "But I was told by a member of staff at the station that I wasn't allowed to take photographs on the platform. He also asked why I hadn't already caught my train because there are regular services to Gloucester. But I don't see the problem. I had paid for my ticket so I had a right to be there just the same as anyone else."

Trainspotters were initially banned from going on to platforms at Cheltenham without a valid ticket last year.

First Great Western said it was because incidents of criminal damage on the platforms had been carried out by someone masquerading as a rail enthusiast.

But Robert, from Rowanfield, in Gloucestershire, said the latest incident meant even people who paid for a ticket to indulge in their hobby were at risk of being thrown out of the station.

A spokesman for First Great Western said the latest crackdown on trainspotters was due to Cheltenham race week. "With the increased numbers using the station we have had to restrict access," he said. "We hope to be able to welcome all enthusiasts back in due course."

Well, now that the dust has settled, I hope that all of our train spotting and photographing enthusiast readers of this forum have indeed been welcomed back ... 

[JayMac]

This person, who was also a bona fide passenger, was told they weren't allowed to take photographs on the platform during the Cheltenham Festival.

Presumably then, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) also stopped each and every racegoer from doing likewise. Stopping them gathering mementos of their trip to and from the races.

It appears that Cheltenham Spa Station is fast becoming a no go area for rail enthusiasts. First, they are all punished for the actions of one. Second, they can now only enjoy their hobby if they purchase a ticket. Third, after purchasing said ticket, they can only travel on the first available service and not one of their choosing.

Using the Festival is a smokescreen from FGW, protecting the staff there who have taken a dislike to anyone on the station with a camera.

I'll certainly be making a point of taking photographs next time I'm at Cheltenham Spa.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I'm grateful to my learned friend 'bignosemac' for reminding me of some previous discussions on this particular subject, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12718.msg137065#msg137065 

In the morning, when I'm not quite so tired, I may consider doing a bit of my 'moving and merging' of these topics - but not until then. 

[Tim]

"First Great Western said it was because incidents of criminal damage on the platforms had been carried out by someone masquerading as a rail enthusiast.
"   And most shoplifting is carried out by people masquerading as shoppers and yet retailers are not stupid enough to decide to ban shoppers from their stores on that basis. 

The rail industry does have a knack of saying and doing stupid things like this.   I believe FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is generally a pretty well run organisation with some of the best staff in the industry.   But don't they realise that saying thinks so stupidly moronic undoes all their good efforts in an instant!  I despair!

[ChrisB]

Hmmm - if staff complained to their union over verbal abuse from so-called trainspotters, it's easier to deal with it this way. THey do tend to spout off when they can't do as they please....

[grahame]

Hmmm - if staff complained to their union over verbal abuse from so-called trainspotters, it's easier to deal with it this way. THey do tend to spout off when they can't do as they please....

To clarify, Chris ... does your THey refer to
- the staff
- the union
- the trainspotters.
Or all three?

[ChrisB]

The latter.

[SDS]

Am I missing something here? Doesn't ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) encourage 'enthusiasts' as they are an extra pair of ears and eyes? Still reminds me of when Virgin went on a campaign of banning photography at one of their major stations which then backfired.

[ChrisB]

Providing they sign in at the station so everyone knows that they're on the station. Usually, they just wander in & start....

[paul7575]

There is no general requirement to 'sign in' at the typical station.  AFAICS^▸ (As Far As I Can See) it is an extra requirement at a relatively small number of NR^» (Network Rail - home page) managed major stations, the published rules are just:

At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This will ensure that station staff are aware that you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities.

Problem is if people keep referring to a need to 'sign in' it starts getting taken as gospel...

Paul

[Tim]

Providing they sign in at the station so everyone knows that they're on the station. Usually, they just wander in & start....

...what?  taking photos? writing down numbers in their books?  chatting with their friends?  doing precisely the same things they would be doing if they had signed in.

How does signing in help anyone?   To my mind it is all about the nasty tendency those in authority have to monitor and control things for the sake of it.  

[ChrisB]

It's private property - the owner/lessor has every right to insist on whatever regulations they want.

Your attitude is exactly why pax travel without tickets....

[JayMac]

Private property to which the public have an implied right of access.

You mention regulations ChrisB. There is no regulation that states persons must sign in at a station. Regulations governing the access granted to the public to railway property are Railway Byelaws.

These can be and are misused (not used, misused) by members of staff to exercise control over rail enthusiasts without justification.

Rail enthusiasm is not an offence. Using the Byelaws to stop it is heavy handed and inappropriate.

There is no analogy whatsoever with people travelling without tickets. There, a specific Byelaw, or Regulation of Railways Act offence is committed.