Overcharged by XC this evening

[whole diary]

[John R]

Bought an off peak day single for travel from Derby to Alvechurch this evening on the 1653 from Derby via New St. Cost ^17.90.  TM^‡(resolve) on board excessed me to an anytime single - only ^1.60, but checking on both National Rail and Cross Country websites tonight they quote the lower fare (which I had checked before I travelled, but unfortunately didn't have a print out with me, so he didn't believe me).

I'm going to complain, not because of the cost, but because of the principle. I bet lots of people are being caught out like this, probably for more than ^1.60, but won't bother to kick up a fuss.  I presume I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply?   

[JayMac]

The correct Day fare is ^19.50. However, the Off Peak Single (SVS) is valid at 1653. So the excess to the Anytime Day (SDS) fare should not be sold when you were travelling on the 1653.

CrossCountry have an evening peak on Day fares on flows where they set the price (1530-1815). As is the case with Derby-Alvechurch.

However, you are correct in that both NRE^‡(resolve) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))'s websites are offering a ^17.90 Off Peak fare on the 1653 from Derby. That however is the Off Peak Single (SVS) and not the Off Peak Day Single (CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) even though they are the same price - ^17.90.

Do complain. You should get your ^1.60 back (if it was me I'd be asking for more by way of goodwill for the hassle). If you bought at a station you have been defrauded. If you bought online then it's caveat emptor. Subtle difference between Off Peak (SVS) and Off Peak Day (CDS). But with the fares being identically priced yet having different restrictions it's an all too easy mistake to make and XC should not really defend a claim of being overcharged.

In future I'd suggest that you explicitly ask for the Off Peak Single (SVS) (not Day). Its the same price as the Off Peak Day (CDS), but importantly doesn't have the afternoon peak restriction.

Ultimately you had a time restricted ticket and were travelling on a service on which that ticket was not valid. The TM^‡(resolve) should have excessed you up to a ticket that was valid for travel at that time. In this case that should have been the Off Peak Single (SVS). Excess ^0.00. He should not have excessed you up to the Anytime Single (SOS).

So. like I said. Complain. You've been sold the wrong ticket initially, and then to compound matters you've been defrauded with the excess, which should have be ^0.00.

[John R]

I bought it at York ticket office.

Is it any wonder people get confused when there are two similarly worded fares with the same price, one of which is valid and the other one isn't? 

[ChrisB]

I've just drawn this to the attention of Richard Gibson, Head of Communications for XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)). I'm sure he'll pass it on and get a suitable response from his fares guys.

[JayMac]

I bought it at York ticket office.

CrossCountry may pass the buck and say that the mis-sold ticket was the fault of the East Coast ticket office at York. Don't let them fob you off with that excuse. It is CrossCountry who complicated matters by introducing an afternoon peak on the Off Peak Day (CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')), CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) fares they set. Prior to Arriva taking over the franchise, there was no such restriction.

No doubt, if they were allowed, CrossCountry would have similarly restricted their Off Peak (SVS, SVR) fares. Fortunately these are regulated, so they aren't able to restrict them in the afternoon. I believe they did lobby DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) for an afternoon/evening restriction on Off Peak (SVS, SVR) fares through Birmingham, but the DfT flatly refused.

Do ask here if regularly travelling with CrossCountry. There are so many legitimate ways to get round their over-priced fares.

[ChrisB]

This problem is across their network.

BAN-BHM has a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) for just less than the SVR. And for some reason restrict into BHM in the evening....solved now with Chiltern undercutting them with a Chiltern-only Anytime fare at least ^4 cheaper....

[JayMac]

And for some reason restrict into BHM in the evening

Because CrossCountry's CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) afternoon/evening restriction is blanket on flows they price, regardless of the actual passenger loadings. It has nothing to do with managing demand, otherwise it would be targeted.

Just like their non-targeted blanket Off-Peak AM start of 0930. Again, nothing to do with managing demand.

[thetrout]

Doesn't this ridiculous restriction also cause tickets that were previously valid on other operators to be invalid because XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) set the fare for the route?

So using a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) From Bournemouth - Reading, departing 17:00 on a South West Trains service then change at Basingstoke for a First Great Western service to Reading now not being valid

I have to say that the argument here of "I'm not using XC's Train Services at all so why should I be restricted at these times when I'm travelling with SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and FGW^▸ (First Great Western)?" Does seem really to make the whole thing ridiculous.

I'm tempted to purchase that CDR from BMH - RDG^‡(resolve) and travel with SWT around 16:00 and see if anyone picks up on it, use the argument above and judge a response. Then pay the excess when requested. Of course I know I could get a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) or MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) for that one. Just wondered how willing SWT would be to impose a ticket restriction from another company.

All this bad press about XC on the forum like broadgage's FOS issue, John R's overcharging plus my own experiences really has got me thinking that XC are the Ryanair of the Railways

*edit - reworded example journey due to it not making any sense at all... TT

[trainer]

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are the Ryanair of the Railways

Not really. With the airline you always get a seat and they're usually cheaper  . 
However, I still don't fly with them unless there's a metaphorical gun to my head - but I nowadays avoid XC if at all possible as well, for all the reasons given above.

[Southern Stag]

I'm tempted to purchase that CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) from BMH - RDG^‡(resolve) and travel with SWT^▸ (South West Trains) around 16:00 and see if anyone picks up on it, use the argument above and judge a response. Then pay the excess when requested. Of course I know I could get a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) or MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) for that one. Just wondered how willing SWT would be to impose a ticket restriction from another company.

There are plenty of tickets that are priced by one TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), who therefore set the restrictions, but are also accepted by other TOCs. SWT have plenty of their own evening restricted tickets out of London too.

[paul7575]

I'm tempted to purchase that CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) from BMH - RDG^‡(resolve) and travel with SWT^▸ (South West Trains) around 16:00 and see if anyone picks up on it, use the argument above and judge a response. Then pay the excess when requested. Of course I know I could get a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) or MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court) for that one.

Penalty Fares are not supposed to be issued for tickets that are otherwise valid but are incorrect because of a time restriction.  The correct action is to excess up to correct price.

Paul

[paul7575]

Another point about the Bournemouth XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) route is that many Reading fares are still priced by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and don't have the evening peak restriction.  Although XC seem to have taken over the flows from the Bournemouth area, for Southampton and Poole area origins and destinations it's still surprisingly FGW.

This is what makes the whole thing about XC's CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) restrictions so random - a layman would probably expect Poole to Reading to be an SWT^▸ (South West Trains) fare as well...

Paul

[ChrisB]

The solution is for other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to issue TOC-specific tickets without restriction....Chiltern have done this where XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) stole the flow from them.

[paul7575]

But not really practical in this example, as neither SWT^▸ (South West Trains) nor FGW^▸ (First Great Western) cover the whole route. 

But what is scary about the current situation is that presumably there's an internal industry mechanism for XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to apply to take over all the relevant flows from FGW;  isn't that basically what they did with the Chiltern route north of Banbury a few years back?

Paul

[Southern Stag]

They could potentially introduce route SWT^▸ (South West Trains)/FGW^▸ (First Great Western) only fares. There are route FGW/ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) only fares, but they are Advance Purchase. I don't know of any walk up tickets with such a validity.