Paddington - Birmingham

[whole diary]

[Red Squirrel]

Interesting take on WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) capacity in this article from the Gruaniad:

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) will not deliver a better rail service. Here is a radical alternative

...The alternative, which I firmly believe destroys the rationale for HS2, is to make Paddington the new London terminus for fast services to the West Midlands ^ making use of the terminal's extra capacity, which will be freed up by the opening of Crossrail in 2018, and upgrading the route from Old Oak Common (just west of Paddington) to Birmingham via Banbury and Leamington Spa. One section of this route ^ from Old Oak Common to its junction, with the line from Marylebone at West Ruislip ^ currently has a service of just one train a day: no capacity issues there...

Click here for full article

The article goes on:

...So I would like to challenge any one of our three main political parties to ditch their commitment to HS2, spend up to ^10bn on delivering the route outlined above and set aside another ^10bn to finance a 10-year programme of route reopenings around the country. This could deliver schemes such as Uckfield-Lewes, Bristol-Portishead, Skipton-Colne, Statford-upon-Avon-Honeybourne, Southampton-Hythe, Bere Alston-Okehampton and at least a score of other long-desired reopenings, each of which would generate significant new journey opportunities around the country and be obvious vote-winners in the constituencies affected.

I'm currently back up to 70% sure HS2 is a good idea...

[ChrisB]

Capacity is what is required.

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) delivers. This doesn't. Not without 4-tracking all the way from South Ruislip to wherever the route leaves to reach another station in Birmingham. Chiltern needs the current infrastructure to run their peak service. The Mainline north from Aynho Junction is also full to capacity in the peaks.

He states that freight be diverted to the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line). There is a capacity issue there already, hence HS2. He doesn't say how he'd cater for them.

[BandHcommuter]

Does anyone know how much platform capacity will be released and usable at Paddington when Crossrail reaches full fruition? Some of the trains on platforms 11-14 would no longer operate, but then some additional capacity will be required if these additional Bristol trains run. It doesn't seem plausible that enough capacity would be released to operate a frequent service to Birmingham and the North from Paddington, even before one looks at the constraints on the route itself.

[IndustryInsider]

Quite.  There's more holes in this idea than most HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) alternatives!

[Red Squirrel]

The biggest hole in my opinion is that HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is not a London-Birmingham railway, as its detractors seem to like to suggest, but the foundation of something rather bigger. I can't really see the Glasgow trains going onward through Snow Hill Tunnel...

[Electric train]

I suspect the Chiltern line is starting to peak load in places without reinstating passing loops at stations, capacity at Padd generated by Crossrail will be taken up by the extra Bristols and the potential of 3 tph fasts to Oxford.  There would still be a track capacity issue between OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) and Padd

The key to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is to abandon any thoughts of a station a Euston, but to build a large interchange at Old Oak Common.  The detractors from that say you would be missing a potential link to run HS2 to HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) through trains but is there any demand for a Leeds / York to Brussels or Paris through train service

[Southern Stag]

I think I prefer the latest suggestion of an underground 'Euston Cross' station which continues through to Stratford International. It provides a proper HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel)-HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) link not just for through International services but for through domestic HS2/Javelin services to Kent.

[Red Squirrel]

...is there any demand for a Leeds / York to Brussels or Paris through train service

That is a good question... there is a parallel in Paris; I wonder how many are put off rail by the need to trudge between termini for onward journies to the south of France?

From my Bristolian viewpoint, much as I would like to give Eurostar a 'go', it is significantly easier to fly from Bristol airport. Is that ever likely to change?

[stuving]

...is there any demand for a Leeds / York to Brussels or Paris through train service

That is a good question... there is a parallel in Paris; I wonder how many are put off rail by the need to trudge between termini for onward journies to the south of France?

From my Bristolian viewpoint, much as I would like to give Eurostar a 'go', it is significantly easier to fly from Bristol airport. Is that ever likely to change?

Of course the French have tried other approaches. Paris has Massy TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse), Marne-la-Vall^e, and A^roport CDG TGV, with through trains and options for interchanges. The problem is that most trains still go to the Paris termini because most people want to go there. I once tried to arrange to a meeting right next to Massy TGV, but there were too few trains to make the journeys work at the right time.

In Lyon, the main stations are through ones, but there is a time penalty for using the old line. A new station was built at Satolas airport (now called St Exup^ry) to allow faster stopping trains, but no-one used it (it became known as rather a white elephant). The airport itself is probably not much of a draw, as it was largely for domestic traffic that TGVs were replacing.

More relevant perhaps is that the LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) network is increasingly seen as providing ordinary fast trains (i.e. TGVs) with a quicker way to get between lots of places, not just specific stations built or much rebuilt as part of the line. There are now plans to let regional trains use some LGVs rather than build or upgrade their existing routes.

(LGV = Ligne ^ Grande Vitesse, i.e. high-speed line)

[ellendune]

...is there any demand for a Leeds / York to Brussels or Paris through train service

That is a good question... there is a parallel in Paris; I wonder how many are put off rail by the need to trudge between termini for onward journies to the south of France?

From my Bristolian viewpoint, much as I would like to give Eurostar a 'go', it is significantly easier to fly from Bristol airport. Is that ever likely to change?

You should give it a go.  I find the train much easier and more pleasurable. Certainly for Paris, Brussels, Rotterdam and Cologne.  I did a time trial from Reading to Bonn.  My colleague let his office in Reading to go to Heathrow as I passed through Reading Station.  He arrived at the hotel in Bonn only 15 minutes before me.  When theer are through trains beyond Brussels it will be even better. Give it a go! 

The frequency of service from Bristol Airport makes many journeys much longer becauise you have to leave so much in advance of when you need to travel.

[Worcester_Passenger]

...is there any demand for a Leeds / York to Brussels or Paris through train service

That is a good question... there is a parallel in Paris; I wonder how many are put off rail by the need to trudge between termini for onward journies to the south of France?

From my Bristolian viewpoint, much as I would like to give Eurostar a 'go', it is significantly easier to fly from Bristol airport. Is that ever likely to change?

I'd echo Ellendune's comments.

My classic journey involves Worcester - Albertville, to visit an uncle who lives up in the French Alps. I suppose that I could fly from Birmingham to Lyon or to Geneve, and then continue by train to Chambery and Albertville, but I'd far rather go the whole way on the train. But there is a big issue about all of the connections and about getting across Paris (Brussels is much easier in this respect).

We've tried using the Eurostar and changing in Lille onto one of the TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) that go round Paris. But they're not frequent enough, and there's not enough traffic for them to go to the Alps, so we can only use this to get to Lyon.

Paris is an easier change as far as the trains are concerned - you end up getting a TGV direct to Chambery. But crossing Paris on the RER is a sordid experience (almost as bad as flying). However, there's now a bus that runs from outside Gare du Nord to outside Gare de Lyon. It's service 65; there's a map at http://www.ratp.fr/informer/pdf/orienter/f_plan.php?nompdf=65&loc=bus_paris/ - just remember that the bus stops will be on the other side of the road. Slower than RER but much more civilised, and without those long walks that are such a feature of the RER.

The best way is during the winter, when there's the direct ski train service from St Pancras to the Alps. But that's scared of Albertville, so although it reverses there, you can't get off and so have to go further up the valley to Moutiers.

[Red Squirrel]

Interesting... when I said 'easier', what I really meant was 'cheaper' - but a quick eyeball suggests I may be wrong about that!

Just checked out a hypothetical journey:

Bristol to Marseille, leaving on 3 Aug and returning on 10 Aug, 2 adults and 2 children, with F&F railcard (natch).

Fly:
Bus to Bristol airport: ^23
Easyjet from Bristol: ^1087
Total: ^1110

Train:
Bristol - Paddington (4 x Group Save Off Peak Adult out, 2 adults/2 children Advance back- who says the fare system is bizarre?) : ^100
Tube: ^8?
Eurostar: London - Marseille (return, inflexible): ^893
Total: ^1001

For completeness; Mobile death greenhouse:
Ferry: ^550 (Portsmouth - Caen, Cherbourg - Portsmouth)
Fuel: ( 1800 miles / 45mpg ) * ^6.30 per gallon = ^252
Total: ^802

Or of course we could walk.

Not entirely scientific, but food for thought...

[stuving]

I guess strictly you should complete the journey to a final destination, such as Marseille itself, Aix-en-Provence (very much Marseille's better half) or somewhere else. It does not make a big difference, with bus fares to Marseille or Aix-en-P from MRS of ^8 or so. Of course you could use Aix-en-Provence TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse), which is about halfway between the town and MRS - so no-where near Aix-en-P itself. I think most Marseille trains stop there; it is a parkway operation for the whole area with good bus and some train links. I wonder how popular it is proving: the siting of the station got a lot of criticism at the time.

[trainer]

When theer are through trains beyond Brussels it will be even better. Give it a go!  

I absolutely agree with ellendune that all train aficionados should give Eurostar a go.  I have been a regular user for my holidays for fifteen years.  I would rather pay for that than some cheapo airline who cares naught for my comfort.  However, if you need to go off the high speed network, hotels come into play and from Bristol, I often have an 'overnighter' with family near London and this adds to time and cost.

Sadly, Her Majesty's Govt. have announced that they will not pay for anymore border controls in new stations in Europe and Eurostar has to have all passengers checked and the train 'locked down' before leaving France.  Apparently, there is insufficient space at St Pancras for the Border Agency to deal with more trains.  (Personally, I find that hard to believe.)  All the talk of Amsterdam and Cologne as potential destinations, has been set back. With the current political climate, I see no prospect of an early change to that policy and if we leave the EU^» (European Union - about), it will be even less likely that we'll be travelling directly to anywhere much past the current termini.

[TonyK]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) delivers. This doesn't. Not without 4-tracking all the way from South Ruislip to wherever the route leaves to reach another station in Birmingham.

That gives me an idea...