Maidenhead to Reading versus St Pancras to Bedford

[whole diary]

[johoare]

I got the 10.32 from Maidenhead to Paddington this morning and was then on the 12.10 from St Pancras to Bedford and made a few comparisons..

First Great Western:

Seal everyone inside a 3 carriage train (no way of opening windows and air con not working) that was full by Slough and so hot I nearly had to get off.. It made me feel very unwell - not that I could have got off after Slough anyway..Outside felt 10 degrees cooler when I finally got off at Paddington.. 25ish miles in 55 minutes. No ticket check

East Midlands Mainline

Seal everyone inside a probably 10 carriage train (I didn't count but two trains stuck together - one half had a buffet the other half had a trolley).. but.. the air conditioning was working.. 45ish miles in 40 minutes..My ticket was checked.

I am very fed up with FGW^▸ (First Great Western).. I know they run less trains at weekends and use the time to perform maintenance on the other trains but do they really have THAT many carriages that need maintenance every weekend?

[Southern Stag]

Most of the problems stem from decisions made by 20 years ago by Network South East. It was NSE^▸ (Network South East) who ordered the 2 and 3 carriage Turbos with ineffective air-conditioning. NSE at the same time introduce Driver Only Operation on the London-Oxford/Bedwyn routes which is why you have no ticket checks. EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) have trains are only about 8 years old and have already benefited from a fairly substantial refurbishment in the last couple of years. The trains are designed for a completely different purpose to that of the Turbos, they're Intercity rather than Suburban trains so a more comfortable, roomy interior is to be expected. As they're also an Intercity operator the trains have a Guard, whose role is to check tickets. As for the number of carriages, 10 carriages is not the norm on the route, normally they're just 5 but the service on a Sunday is greatly reduced compared to a weekday so there are enough sets to form 10 carriage trains.

[bobm]

Jo

See my comments here about a short-formed HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on a busy weekend service - http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12607.0

I too wonder how many sets are spare at weekends.

[johoare]

Most of the problems stem from decisions made by 20 years ago by Network South East. It was NSE^▸ (Network South East) who ordered the 2 and 3 carriage Turbos with ineffective air-conditioning. NSE at the same time introduce Driver Only Operation on the London-Oxford/Bedwyn routes which is why you have no ticket checks. EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) have trains are only about 8 years old and have already benefited from a fairly substantial refurbishment in the last couple of years. The trains are designed for a completely different purpose to that of the Turbos, they're Intercity rather than Suburban trains so a more comfortable, roomy interior is to be expected. As they're also an Intercity operator the trains have a Guard, whose role is to check tickets. As for the number of carriages, 10 carriages is not the norm on the route, normally they're just 5 but the service on a Sunday is greatly reduced compared to a weekday so there are enough sets to form 10 carriage trains.

If only FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would therefore stop some of their HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) at this end of the line occasionaly rather than all the time at the other then...That would solve the problem a bit.. I am surprised they didn't make someone seriously ill today.. I  commute most days so I am used to it but this was extreme.. I had a seat and it still made me feel very bad.. I only stayed on after Ealing Broadway as the thought of getting up was marginally worse..

Incidentally the friend I was visiting mentioned that there is the same problem with First Capital connect trains from Bedford.. The clue is in part of the name of the train company maybe? 

[johoare]

Jo

See my comments here about a short-formed HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on a busy weekend service - http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12607.0

I too wonder how many sets are spare at weekends.

I am going to be asking FGW^▸ (First Great Western) just that.. Although I could almost tell you what their first reply will be.. lack of rolling stock etc etc.. I think their second reply may be a bit better... or third if not 

[John R]

To compare Maidenhead with Bedford in terms of provision of intercity services is not really fair. The Bedford stop is equivalent to Reading or maybe Didcot. There are of course a lot of unrefurbished 319s that ply the route south of Bedford on services similar to the Thames Turbos. They may even find they way onto the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) in due course.

[Southern Stag]

If only FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would therefore stop some of their HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) at this end of the line occasionaly rather than all the time at the other then...That would solve the problem a bit.. I am surprised they didn't make someone seriously ill today.. I  commute most days so I am used to it but this was extreme.. I had a seat and it still made me feel very bad.. I only stayed on after Ealing Broadway as the thought of getting up was marginally worse..

Incidentally the friend I was visiting mentioned that there is the same problem with First Capital connect trains from Bedford.. The clue is in part of the name of the train company maybe? 

It's just not that easy though, the main lines don't have the capacity to have frequently stopping services, and often the trains themselves don't have the capacity either. HSTs are slow to brake and accelerate and slow at stations because of the slam doors. The majority of the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) services calling at Bedford are modern DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) which can brake and accelerate more quickly than HSTs and also have power doors so are quicker at stations. Furthermore the Midland Main Line is less intensively used than the Great Western Main Line.

Or maybe it's to do with the type of service they're running, both are suburban services. Ask any Greater Anglia or Southeastern commuter for their opinion and you'd hear broadly similar criticisms. Perhaps a more useful parallel between FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) and FGW is the age of the stock used, FCC's Class 319s are around 25 years old, FGW's Turbos around 20. They both underwent Network South East led modernisations at a similar period.

[johoare]

If only FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would therefore stop some of their HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) at this end of the line occasionaly rather than all the time at the other then...That would solve the problem a bit.. I am surprised they didn't make someone seriously ill today.. I  commute most days so I am used to it but this was extreme.. I had a seat and it still made me feel very bad.. I only stayed on after Ealing Broadway as the thought of getting up was marginally worse..

Incidentally the friend I was visiting mentioned that there is the same problem with First Capital connect trains from Bedford.. The clue is in part of the name of the train company maybe? 

It's just not that easy though, the main lines don't have the capacity to have frequently stopping services, and often the trains themselves don't have the capacity either. HSTs are slow to brake and accelerate and slow at stations because of the slam doors. The majority of the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) services calling at Bedford are modern DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) which can brake and accelerate more quickly than HSTs and also have power doors so are quicker at stations. Furthermore the Midland Main Line is less intensively used than the Great Western Main Line.

Or maybe it's to do with the type of service they're running, both are suburban services. Ask any Greater Anglia or Southeastern commuter for their opinion and you'd hear broadly similar criticisms. Perhaps a more useful parallel between FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) and FGW is the age of the stock used, FCC's Class 319s are around 25 years old, FGW's Turbos around 20. They both underwent Network South East led modernisations at a similar period.

Aah well.. All they need to do is open the windows then and not pretend the air conditioning works.. Oh and run longer trains on a Sunday.. They REALLY can't be maintaining that many carriages on a Sunday...

[bobm]

The problem with stopping HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) east of Reading at the weekends, particularly on Sundays, is that on many weekends only two of the four lines are open.

This weekend, for example, only the relief (slow) lines are open from Airport Junction to Tilehurst - with the exception of lines through Slough Station and Twyford.  Therefore if HSTs are to pass slower trains they have to be in the right place at the right time.  If you start putting in unplanned stops it will soon cause the timetable to fall apart.

[johoare]

The problem with stopping HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) east of Reading at the weekends, particularly on Sundays, is that on many weekends only two of the four lines are open.

This weekend, for example, only the relief (slow) lines are open from Airport Junction to Tilehurst - with the exception of lines through Slough Station and Twyford.  Therefore if HSTs are to pass slower trains they have to be in the right place at the right time.  If you start putting in unplanned stops it will soon cause the timetable to fall apart.

Indeed, although my incredibly slow train this morning did swap over to the mainline at Slough and stopped there for a while and back over to the relief after which was a bit strange and no doubt held up a few trains or in fact let some through the relief line though I don't think I saw any..

Back to my original point then.. Put on more carriages.. And open all the windows..

[bobm]

I agree it won't help those sweltering in a hot train, but in your case Jo the train you were on, according to reailtimetrains, was held on platform 3 at Slough to allow a slightly late running train from Swansea pass "on the inside".  I suppose it made more sense to move you over to the small bit of the main lines which were open at Slough and hold you there rather than cross over the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) and then put it back on the reliefs after the station.

[johoare]

Well yes... Although I bet they were nice and cool on their train ;-)

[eightf48544]

In this case the chief culprit is DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) and their failure for many years to instigate a planned rolling stock replacement as BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) had run. I have seen 41/2 types of train on the TV services in 50 years. There is also the failure to electrify which is only now being rectified but is also causing problems as nobody will buy any new DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) as they are making too much money out of written down 14Xs.

The services were

An irregular steam hauled 61XX service with 6 Non Corridoor compartment coaches towards, the end of steam of form regular interval servie was beginning to be introduced. Plus some Hall even Castle hauled (Henley) outer suburbans one even fast to and from Taplow!
 
Late 1950s

6 car 117 service to replace steam. Over time this gradually reduced to 3 car off peak but was regular interval. Occasionaly replaced by 31s and 3/4 four coaches (the half service) but very good!.

Early 80s

The Turbos which at the time were a vast improvement on the 117 and faster (no padding in the timetable) and more comfortable!. However, there were less units and a lot were 2 car.  It's a pity about the A/C on the 166 but NSE^▸ (Network South East) didn't have the money to put it right and the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) and ROSCOs^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) weren't interested too busy sweating the fleet and the passengers.

The outer suburbans became more regular in NSE days with 47 and 50 haulage, up 10/11 Mark 2s, now replaced by Turbos and unsuitable HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) as has been said above.

So the Turbo fleet is being sweated harder than ever, so maybe they do need all the units under maintenance on Sunday to ensure a relatively decent weekaday service.

So theren't aren't going to be any longer trians in the TV until the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and 319s?? start running under the wires and even then it will depend on how nay 319s?? we get. Aren't some promised to Liverpool Manchester?

The only consolation I can offer is that the TV is not the only area to suffer shortage of stock due to DaFT's decisions.

Amended to add:

A further complication with electrification resiganalling is that to amke maximum use of the increased capacity any EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) cascaded to the TV will have to have ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.) retro fitted which is not cheap!



 

[Western Enterprise]

Early 80s

The Turbos which at the time were a vast improvement on the 117 and faster (no padding in the timetable) and more comfortable!. However, there were less units and a lot were 2 car. 
 

The 117's were replaced early 90's surely?
I remember the Henley regatta one time in '93, when I first started work, it was a 117 and the doors wouldn't shut because there were so many people on board.

They did trial a new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) type in the early 80's but nothing came of it.

[Southern Stag]

So theren't aren't going to be any longer trians in the TV until the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and 319s?? start running under the wires and even then it will depend on how nay 319s?? we get. Aren't some promised to Liverpool Manchester?

It does seem less likely now that 319s will be transferred to the Thames Valley. Network Rail have mentioned a need for 110mph capability for EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) in the Thames Valley which would rule out 319s. With more electrification now announced then when GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification was first announced a home can more than likely be found for the 319s elsewhere. The original plan was splitting the fleet between Northern and FGW^▸ (First Great Western). Delays to the ordering of new Thameslink units by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) mean that it's now unlikely that 319s would be ready in time for the first stage of the Lancashire triangle electrification. It seems now that more Southern 377s will have to move to Thameslink, they have one batch of 377s being delivered now and a further batch of new units to be ordered soon and delivered much quicker than the Thameslink units. Moving 377s to Thameslink services will allow the 319s to move off North. Whether enough units would actual be available in time for GWML electrification as well as enough to move to Northern would surely have to be questioned anyway.