Another fare check please ...

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

Indeed I too have made rather embarrassing mistake with Virgin Trains. Whilst I hate to blame Dyslexia for the error I made... That is what the fundamental cause of the error was.

At Coventry I boarded a service running two minutes late. I believe from memory it was xx:11 but advertised as due at xx:13. The problem? The train I actually wanted was xx:31!

The train I had boarded was next call Rugby then fast to London Euston. The train I should have caught was next call Watford Junction then fast to London Euston.

The error only became apparent AFTER we had left Rugby. I heard the announcement that next call was London Euston. The problem? The ticket I had was route: NOT LONDON

However the TM^‡(resolve) I have to say was very good. I went to find him immediately to explain the error and he said to back to First Class and he'd come and sort something out. On production of my ticket which at the time was an FOR priced in the hundreds provided by my client, he said that I had paid enough as it was and said he'd get me through the barrier at Euston. Along with the cheeky comment, "You're not the first and you certainly won't be the last...!"

But even back in the bygone days of British Rail... It's not an uncommon mistake

[Network SouthEast]

Well we live and learn - I had assumed Penalty Fares were universal. Good old Sir Dick, I say!

They're not universal even in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) land! See these three maps for more information on where FGW enforce PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare)! http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.ashx

[trainer]

This map (Network Southeast's link above) has come as a complete surprise to me, because Yatton, which is my most used starting point, is shown.  The surprise is that I have been told by staff not to worry if I don't have a ticket, they can tell fare dodgers from genuine punters (like me  ).  Also they are always selling tickets on the train when I travel.  I prefer to buy on advance and always try to, but occasionally arrive late and/or find the only machine not working. 

The map may suggest enforcement, but practice suggests otherwise.  It would be interesting if they tried to enforce it without warning they now mean it.

I suspect the unreliability of the ticket machines is the reason it doesn't happen.

[Red Squirrel]

They're not universal even in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) land! See these three maps for more information on where FGW enforce PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare)! http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.ashx

I came across these maps while I was digesting Brucey's point about Virgin not charging penaluy fares. How in the name of anything sensible is the average punter supposed to follow this?

I wonder how many people, for example, would know whether it was acceptable to complete a ticketed journey at a penalty fares station and then catch another train leaving that station on a non-penalty-fares line, without a ticket? The rules seem clear here:

If you join a First Great Western train at any of the designated penalty fares stations and travel to your final destination without a ticket, or a permit to travel, you will have to pay a penalty fare. This will be twice the full, single fare to the next station, or at least ^20, whichever is the greater. You will also have to pay the full fare for the rest of the journey. The map^s (sic) shown below clearly shows penalty fares routes and penalty fares stations.

This is at best ambiguous, in this context.

I quite often find myself in this situation, and will always go out through the barriers and buy a ticket for the onward journey - partly because I want to be sure I'm legal, and partly because experience tells me I am unlikley to get an opportunity to buy a ticket from the guard, and I want to be sure my journey contributes to the ridership stats for the line!

But I am also conscious that if I didn't buy a ticket before getting on the train, then in the section of line up to the first non-penalty-fares station I would be on a train which has left a station at which tickets were available, with no ticket. Isn't that a penalisable offence?

[stuving]

The map may suggest enforcement, but practice suggests otherwise.  It would be interesting if they tried to enforce it without warning they now mean it.

I have always been puzzled by how FGW^▸ (First Great Western) work this on my local Wokingham to Reading line. SWT^▸ (South West Trains) appear to apply the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) regime in full, and at Wokingham (no barriers - yet) that means occasionally descending with a revenue protection team of about six plus BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) support.

The map shows the line to Guildford as PF terriitory, but the North Downs Line beyond that is not. In practice they usually seem to sell tickets on board throughout, and it may be that the smaller stations do not reliably have a machine that works. On Friday, the TM^‡(resolve) announced as we approached Reading that anyone who wanted to buy a ticket to save queuing at the excess fares office should come and find him, suggesting they see excess fares as just another normal way of paying. I've not had to do that recently, so I don't know how that office applies the rules.

On the other hand, I have seen an FGW TM giving someone the full "pay up or face prosecution" treatment, but they had boarded at Reading, which may rate as "no excuse" for not buying a ticket. This was some time ago, when the gates on the footbridge were very often left open for want of a minder. Incidentally, yesterday was the first day I have seen the gates at the North entrance open and unattended during the day (ca. 18:30).

[JayMac]

I wonder how many people, for example, would know whether it was acceptable to complete a ticketed journey at a penalty fares station and then catch another train leaving that station on a non-penalty-fares line, without a ticket? The rules seem clear here:

If you join a First Great Western train at any of the designated penalty fares stations and travel to your final destination without a ticket, or a permit to travel, you will have to pay a penalty fare. This will be twice the full, single fare to the next station, or at least ^20, whichever is the greater. You will also have to pay the full fare for the rest of the journey. The map^s (sic) shown below clearly shows penalty fares routes and penalty fares stations.

This is at best ambiguous, in this context.

I quite often find myself in this situation, and will always go out through the barriers and buy a ticket for the onward journey - partly because I want to be sure I'm legal, and partly because experience tells me I am unlikley to get an opportunity to buy a ticket from the guard, and I want to be sure my journey contributes to the ridership stats for the line!

But I am also conscious that if I didn't buy a ticket before getting on the train, then in the section of line up to the first non-penalty-fares station I would be on a train which has left a station at which tickets were available, with no ticket. Isn't that a penalisable offence?

The policy that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have to follow that enables them to operate a Penalty Fares scheme says that a passenger shouldn't have to delay their journey to buy a ticket at an interchange station. If you have time, buy a ticket. If you don't have time then ticket purchase should be made at the next earliest opportunity.

Interchange. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 2 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

(Strategic Rail Authority - about)%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Policy%202002.pdf#page=11" target="_blank">https://www.ircas.co.uk/docs/SRA%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Policy%202002.pdf#page=11

Each decision of an authorised collector to issue a Penalty Fare should take into account the individual circumstances. Sometimes though they will be issued in error. You only have to pay the fare that would have been due, as a minimum, when issued a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare). Then if there are grounds to have the PF cancelled you can appeal the outstanding balance.

I once succeeded in travelling from Patchway to Bracknell having had no opportunity to buy a ticket. At both Bristol TM^‡(resolve) and Reading I had insufficient time to purchase my ticket without delaying my journey. On board to Reading the Train Manager's ticket machine wasn't working. A Revenue Protection Inspector at Bracknell wanted to PF me from Bristol TM - Bracknell and I had to strenuously argue my case about my start station having no facilities and there being no opportunity to purchase en route. Eventually the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) relented and let me go to the ticket window to buy the tickets I wanted.

[Red Squirrel]

...the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available.

That's not quite what's happening in my case. Typically, I make the decision whether to walk, catch the Severn Beach line train, or get a bus when I arrive back at Temple Meads. It isn't that tickets weren't available; I just hadn't decided on the mode of transport (and therefore the requirement for an onward ticket) when I started my journey.

[Fourbee]

I once succeeded in travelling from Patchway to Bracknell having had no opportunity to buy a ticket. At both Bristol TM^‡(resolve) and Reading I had insufficient time to purchase my ticket without delaying my journey. On board to Reading the Train Manager's ticket machine wasn't working. A Revenue Protection Inspector at Bracknell wanted to PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) me from Bristol TM - Bracknell and I had to strenuously argue my case about my start station having no facilities and there being no opportunity to purchase en route. Eventually the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) relented and let me go to the ticket window to buy the tickets I wanted.

I cannot believe he even bothered to argue. You honestly stated you came from Patchway, so a non-trivial fare was going to be payable.

[JayMac]

Well, maybe slightly trivial. I wanted, and ended up purchasing, 2x Off Peak Day Returns, split at Didcot.

[bobm]

What really narks me is when there is no Train Manager or Conductor to be seen.

I think yesterday was something of a record.

I made the following journeys and was only asked to show my rover ticket once.

Teignmouth to Exeter St Davids
Exeter St Davids to Dawlish Warren
Dawlish Warren to Teignmouth
Teignmouth to Taunton
Taunton to Newton Abbot
Newton Abbot to Teignmouth - it was on this seven minute journey that I was asked.

Had either of the trains to/from Taunton been busy I might have decided to go for a ^5 Weekend First Upgrade - I wonder if I would have been asked to pay it?

I have never travelled without having a ticket, or an acceptable reason as defined in the rules, but I see people getting on services sometimes openly boasting to the friends accompanying them that they do not have tickets. 

I know TMs^‡(resolve) and Conductors have jobs other than ticket collecting but if my experience yesterday is typical of an average Sunday in the West Country there's the chance a fair bit of revenue is being lost.  All the stations I alighted at were "open" except Exeter St Davids.  The barriers at Taunton were unmanned.

[JayMac]

Barriers at Taunton were unmanned on Saturday afternoon as well.

Spend all that money on installing them to keep the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) happy and then don't bother staffing them. What's that all about?

Surely week-ends are the time when you want them staffed. More likely to be chancers among the leisure traveller than at week-day commuting times.

[thetrout]

Was on a Southern Service today from London Victoria - East Croydon. 19:17 I think it was, 12 car unit that splits during the journey. I was sat in (The not so) First Class at the very front of the train. About 5 minutes before ECR, a handful of RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s arrived to do ticket checks, something that has only happened to me on a Southern Rail Service once IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) (even then that was more of a chancer as they saw me and ladyfriend trout park derri^res in 1ST)

Of the 4 of us in First Class. 1 person had a Standard Class ticket. Instant Penalty Fare issued. (No... It wasn't me with the Standard Class Ticket ) ^20 for Clapham Junction to ECR... That must hurt a little bit! But to be fair the other 2 passengers were annual season ticket holders probably priced in the thousands!

Then the flip side of that was at Clapham Junction at 20:15 the Footbridge Gateline on the East Side (Near the Toilets) was completely open and unmanned... and that's Britain's Busiest Station!!

On my Journey back from Paddington - Bath Spa, ticket checks were very sparing IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion). Checked once around Didcot Parkway. No askie to see reservation thingy (Advance! )

Win some, Loss some I guess...!

[grahame]

Barriers at Taunton were unmanned on Saturday afternoon as well.

Announcement on yesterday's 15:30 off Paddington as it approached Chippenham. "Will customers getting off at Chippenham please retain them in order to use the barriers as they leave the station".  Interesting:
a) A very fast construction since 08:45 when I had left
b) Portable barriers (a la flash mob!) in place
c) Human team forming ticket barriers and checking people off the platform
d) None of the above; incorrect announcement, as normal open access applied
... turned out to be (d) ...

Spend all that money on installing them to keep the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) happy and then don't bother staffing them. What's that all about?

Surely week-ends are the time when you want them staffed. More likely to be chancers among the leisure traveller than at week-day commuting times.

I'm only going to give qualified agreement with that; I suspect that some of the very best value for money in security (of people and of revenue) is to vary the level of checking within the rules - putting off a lot of chancers with the threat and occasional real checking rather than putting an always-check regime in place which will catch lots initially, then very few.

Then the flip side of that was at Clapham Junction at 20:15 the Footbridge Gateline on the East Side (Near the Toilets) was completely open and unmanned... and that's Britain's Busiest Station!!

But then ... that's based on interchange and passing through figures.  Entering / leaving station it's far lower, and I think my Taunton comment applies.

On my Journey back from Paddington - Bath Spa, ticket checks were very sparing IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion). Checked once around Didcot Parkway. No askie to see reservation thingy (Advance! )

Win some, Loss some I guess...!

Did it leave Paddington from a gated platform?   Were there other operation matters to deal with (disruptive passengers, updating colleague who had just returned from leave on what had happened in last two weeks, standing at defective door as health and safety monitor, checking NCoCs for awkward passenger who had referred him to 19(c) )?

[Network SouthEast]

Was on a Southern Service today from London Victoria - East Croydon. 19:17 I think it was, 12 car unit that splits during the journey. I was sat in (The not so) First Class at the very front of the train. About 5 minutes before ECR, a handful of RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s arrived to do ticket checks, something that has only happened to me on a Southern Rail Service once IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) (even then that was more of a chancer as they saw me and ladyfriend trout park derri^res in 1ST)

Of the 4 of us in First Class. 1 person had a Standard Class ticket. Instant Penalty Fare issued. (No... It wasn't me with the Standard Class Ticket ) ^20 for Clapham Junction to ECR... That must hurt a little bit! But to be fair the other 2 passengers were annual season ticket holders probably priced in the thousands!

Then the flip side of that was at Clapham Junction at 20:15 the Footbridge Gateline on the East Side (Near the Toilets) was completely open and unmanned... and that's Britain's Busiest Station!!

On my Journey back from Paddington - Bath Spa, ticket checks were very sparing IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion). Checked once around Didcot Parkway. No askie to see reservation thingy (Advance! )

Win some, Loss some I guess...!

Clapham Junction station is the busiest station only by number of trains passing through it, not the number of passengers - that accolade goes to London Waterloo.

Anyway, you could do worse than unmanned ticket barriers at Clapham Junction. How about platforms 11/12/13/14 at Paddington, which are often left open in the evening peaks, or the barriers on the bridge for platforms 2/3/4/5?

[grahame]

I found this official text quoted by Ollie very interesting (my highlight)

Someone else may link to something better, but I believe this should cover it:

TSA^▸ (Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.) Version 9.6
-
171
-
Issue Date: March 2013
PART VI: RETAILING STANDARDS

6-25
RIGHTS AND RESTRICTIONS

(1)
Obligations of the Operator making the Sale
When Selling a Rail Product, an Operator must not say or do anything which is inconsistent with the Rights and Restrictions, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and/or any other conditions which apply to the Rail Product.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/TSA%20V9_6%20-%20Main%20Agreement%20%28Volume%201%29.pdf

The train manager on the Gatwick to Reading train was not (at the time) selling me a rail product ... I had bought such products previously, and he was telling me (incorrectly, we commonly believe here) that it wasn't valid on the service on which I was travelling.   

Why does this ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) regulation limit the obligations to at time of sale?  That looks un-necessary, and appears to leave the way open (and allowable under this rule) for ticket enforcers later down the chain to use different (individual TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)) interpretations of when the National Conditions of Carriage should apply.  Very unsatisfactory indeed, probably not what was intended ...