Another fare check please ...

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Ironically, had I known I was returning from North Camp I could have bought ...

12.00 - season, North Camp to Farnborough North
8.50 - single to Didcot
11.50 - single to Melksham
Total - 32.00

And saved 3.30 more ... I wonder if Shxxx would have told me that wasn't a valid split either.  I don't mind staff not knowing.  I don't mind them saying they'll go away and check (and if they say "I'll come back if there's a problem", no return would then be fine).  I do fell it's arrogant of them to make an accusation in front of a whole lot of other passengers, stating that they are correct ... "humiliate the passenger" really isn't acceptable when the passenger has done no wrong.

Bobm, I have to agree with you about not recommending splits to people who can't explain the case well and be prepared to do so.   I don't like advising people to pay more that they need to because of the hassle they may get - in fact, I feel that the net effect of the system as it's run is that First are taking more money that they should by menacing their customers.

[Fourbee]

When tickets were checked, I handed the conductor the two tickets for the North Downs line, and showed him the season ticket and also the Didcot - Melksham.    He only looked at the two tickets, and told me they were not valid on that train as it didn't stop at Farnborough North.

Encounters like this can leave you feeling a bit embarrassed more than anything else, even though what you have done is completely fine. I am sure there are some on the railway, who, whenever they spot anything slightly out of the ordinary want to make a point, for making a points' sake and to be "right".

I was wondering what approach would work best here. Maybe something along the lines of "I'm quite happy if you want me to give customer services a quick phone call xxxx to check?" - that way everyone in the carriage knows xxxx is talking complete BS and they can have some humiliation back. Almost certainly they will back down, because they are not sure of their erroneous position which will then leave you vindicated.

[bobm]

I take your point Fourbee but from my point of view I am not looking to "humilate" or gain "vindication".  I am a customer and I would like to be treated in the same way I hope I treat people who are customers of mine.  By the same token if I try to give as good as I get the railway staff are within their rights to ask me to leave the train - and at that point I have no defence under the byelaws.

There is no getting away from the fact the fares structure is over-complicated and staff must struggle to keep on top of it - but bearing that in mind they should still treat customers/passengers with courtesy and if it turns out the customer is wrong deal with them appropriately.  That should not involve raised voices or humilation from either side.  If the customer is right a friendly acknowledgement will do no harm.

[thetrout]

I've had various encounters over the years. But situations like this sadly are less than uncommon.

One of them that sticks in my head was on a South West Trains service last year. I was travelling on an Off Peak Return and Gold Card ^5 First Class Upgrade. It was a weekday. I had my tickets inspected by a Train Manager who told me that my First Class Coupon was not valid on Weekdays. I politely asked them if they were confusing it with Weekend First (Also ^5). I was told the rules were the same for both upgrade types.

I asked if they wouldn't mind clarifying that with control as they were two totally different schemes. She raised her voice and said something along the lines of "It's not valid, pay the excess or move, those are the choices"

I then stated she was wrong and that she was getting it confused with WF. I asked how the ticket office at Southend Victoria could issue me a ticket knowing it not be valid. It was accepted without question by GreaterAnglia RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s in First Class where SWT^▸ (South West Trains) WF upgrades would NOT be valid.

Then she loudly said in the most condescending voice possible. "Well I can always get our RPI's to check the validity for you"

My response being "Go for it, it's valid so there won't be a problem"

Then she said fine I'll get them to book you. Other passengers were getting a bit irate about the argument. The chap opposite funnily enough also knew my ticket was valid, as he had purchased the ^5 Gold Card Upgrades previously.

Did she return... No. Did the RPI's hunt me down. No. Was my ticket valid? Absolutely.
 

[Fourbee]

I do not like making a scene in common with a lot of British people. I use the trains a lot, would probably encounter the member of staff again and feel embarrassed if there had been a heated argument. I think the suggestion of the phone call would probably diffuse the situation very quickly and could be done in a quiet manner of course (even so, passengers in the immediate vicinity will overhear the details).

I agree with bobm, there certainly is no need for raised voices on either side, but when the situation has been sparked off by a member of staff being indiscreet and bang wrong I can understand why some passengers would be irked in return.

Railway staff encounter a lot of chancers which they deal with (quite rightly) in a robust way. It is separating those from the honest fare paying passenger (abiding by the almost farcical rules) which is key.

[Red Squirrel]

Railway staff encounter a lot of chancers which they deal with (quite rightly) in a robust way. It is separating those from the honest fare paying passenger (abiding by the almost farcical rules) which is key.

That really is the key.

Personally I would sooner saw my own leg off with rusty implements than try to rob the train companies of the correct fare, even though the utter ludicrousness of the fares system leaves one agog at times. I often travel between Montpelier and Worcester, and find I need to be fairly robust at times to get the correct fare of ^13.70 ('split' at Temple Meads, though I don't really see it that way as the alternative would be to walk or get the bus) rather than say, for example, the alternative ^58.30 'via Brum' fare that would allow me to take an extra hour getting there.

The thing that really ignites my anger is the use of penalty fares: Penalty for what? Failing to understand a system that many railway employees themsleves don't properly understand? For losing your ticket? For accidentally getting on the wrong train? For most businesses, penalties are the last resort; we assume goodwill on both sides until it becomes irrefutable that one party is not playing by the rules. The same should apply to revenue protection.

Out of interest, I wonder how many passengers on the Severn Beach line and other similar routes where the guard is often too busy to collect fares would use 'honesty boxes' if they were made available? Or am I being too Pollyannaish?

[ellendune]

Railway staff encounter a lot of chancers which they deal with (quite rightly) in a robust way. It is separating those from the honest fare paying passenger (abiding by the almost farcical rules) which is key.

That really is the key.

Personally I would sooner saw my own leg off with rusty implements than try to rob the train companies of the correct fare, even though the utter ludicrousness of the fares system leaves one agog at times. I often travel between Montpelier and Worcester, and find I need to be fairly robust at times to get the correct fare of ^13.70 ('split' at Temple Meads, though I don't really see it that way as the alternative would be to walk or get the bus) rather than say, for example, the alternative ^58.30 'via Brum' fare that would allow me to take an extra hour getting there.

The thing that really ignites my anger is the use of penalty fares: Penalty for what? Failing to understand a system that many railway employees themsleves don't properly understand? For losing your ticket? For accidentally getting on the wrong train? For most businesses, penalties are the last resort; we assume goodwill on both sides until it becomes irrefutable that one party is not playing by the rules. The same should apply to revenue protection.

Out of interest, I wonder how many passengers on the Severn Beach line and other similar routes where the guard is often too busy to collect fares would use 'honesty boxes' if they were made available? Or am I being too Pollyannaish?

Couldn't agree more.  A friend of mine now carries a season ticket with his photocard and an extract from the routing guide to show that his ticket is valid.  Useful that they make the card wallets with three sections.

[JayMac]

Personally I would sooner saw my own leg off with rusty implements than try to rob the train companies of the correct fare...

Ah... but what is the 'correct fare'?

• A to D?
• A to D with a split at B?
• A to D with a season between A and B and additional tickets from B to C and C to D?
• A to D and using an easement that allows a double back from E to D?
• A to D with an Advance from A to B valid only on the third train on the first Tuesday in June and a walk up ticket from B to D

....ad infinitum
 
If it helps you make up your mind RS, I've got a shed full of rusty implements.

[Red Squirrel]

Ah... but what is the 'correct fare'?

That's easy:

Rule 77a. If a player moves to such a location that there are less than two occupied bases between the location played and the next but one Shift Zone, Morton's Convention being in play, whether the Loop has been vectored from either diagonal or not, and all other players are out of Nip, then that move is declared 'under-struck' and therefore void, meaning that the player has no option but to offer a Bakerloo Redress and be declared out of line and miss a turn.

From 'The Rules of Mornington Crescent', 'I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue - The Best of Forty Years'

[JayMac]

Red Squirrel,

This is quite spooky. I have a good friend staying overnight and he saw my earlier post and commented that it was reminiscent of ISIHAC.

Your reply has freaked us both out.

We're both now stuck at Finchley Central.

[grahame]

Personally I would sooner saw my own leg off with rusty implements than try to rob the train companies of the correct fare...

Ah... but what is the 'correct fare'?

• A to D?
• A to D with a split at B?
• A to D with a season between A and B and additional tickets from B to C and C to D?
• A to D and using an easement that allows a double back from E to D?
• A to D with an Advance from A to B valid only on the third train on the first Tuesday in June and a walk up ticket from B to D

....ad infinitum
 
If it helps you make up your mind RS, I've got a shed full of rusty implements.

Each of those looks to me like it is a correct fare when used on trains that fulfil the conditions set on each ticket in conjunction with national conditions of carriage and easements, and I should be able to use any of them when it is a correct fare, without fear of being told that I'm using a ticket I should not be using.  As the arrangements for purchase, collection / delivery, routing, stops, and changing plans, and the total price will all vary, that will effect what the most appropriate one is for me, and I am free to choose within the rules and practicality.

Should a representative of the rail industry with authority to check tickets be unsure as to the validity of ticket(s) for a journey, (s)he is welcome to check.  And that may involve telling the customer that (s)he is not sure, and will go away and check. Where such a check is made,  (s)he should return to confirm validity to the customer, or to inform the customer why the combination is wrong - the only exception being if (s)he gets sidetracked in relation to the safety of the train, other trains, and their passengers or other members of the public or other parties. To fail to return is rude; to tell a customer that their ticket(s) are invalid for the journey being made when that is not the case is - well, words are failing me ... I could get myself into really hot water by saying what I think of such behaviour.

[Brucey]

Conversely from the experiences here, the embarrassment can be very deserved.

Yesterday, I purchased a Milton Keynes Central to Harrow & Wealdstone single (in a rush, only had 90 seconds until the train left) for ^11.30 to use on a non-stop Virgin train to London Euston, in conjunction with my outboundary Travelcard season.  Obviously I didn't want to pay for part of the journey I'd already paid for, hence why I chose Harrow.

When the train manager checked our tickets, he started tapping at his Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains).  Oh dear, time to get out the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) went through my mind.  He then said, with a big grin on his face, "you do know that a ticket to London Terminals Virgin Only would've been ^8.60".

The people I was travelling with see me as a train geek, hence the embarrassment and stick I got for the rest of the day

[Red Squirrel]

Brucey, my point is that if your error had been the other way (i.e. you had inadvertantly under-paid) then it really wouldn't have been a joke. What would the penalty fare have been?

[Brucey]

Brucey, my point is that if your error had been the other way (i.e. you had inadvertantly under-paid) then it really wouldn't have been a joke. What would the penalty fare have been?

In my case, an anytime single ticket without railcard (^18.50) as Virgin do not operate a Penalty Fare Policy.

The same journey with a Penalty Fare TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would have cost ^37.00.

[Red Squirrel]

Well we live and learn - I had assumed Penalty Fares were universal. Good old Sir Dick, I say!