Another fare check please ...

[whole diary]

[grahame]

This week ... Melksham to Farnborough on Monday morning (for 09:00), back Wednesday evening - cannot leave Farnborough until after 17:15 and must be on 19:11 arrival into Melksham.

Single fare 57 pounds / return 114 is a bit high for me to justify (better to drive at those prices!)

Alternative ...
MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains) -> TRO^» (Trowbridge - next trains) 3.30 single
TRO -> FNB 22.30 anytime day single (via SAL)

FNN -> CHO 8.00 off-peak day single
CHO -> DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) 15.60 7 day season
DID -> MKM 11.70 Super off-peak single

Total - 60.90

[ChrisB]

FNB or FNN?.....:-)

[grahame]

FNB or FNN?.....:-)

I've selected ...
FNB outbound - need to be very close to station as I'll have 15 training manuals. Too heavy to walk from FNN
FNN on way back - need to be in MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains) by 19:15;  train from FNB only gets in at 19:50

[JayMac]

As your return journey requires use of the 1812 off Reading arriving Swindon 1839 then a normal Didcot split (ie train must call) is not an option.

I think you've found (nearly) the cheapest option using that 7 Day Season between Cholsey and Didcot.

A further ^2.30 can be saved by buying a FNN-RDG^‡(resolve) Off Peak Day Single at ^5.70 as your Cholsey to Didcot 7 Day Season is valid via Reading thanks to a Routeing Guide easement:

Customers travelling from Cholsey via Didcot Parkway in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may travel via Reading. This easement applies in both directions.

You are travelling via Didcot Parkway with your combination of tickets.

[grahame]

I think you've found (nearly) the cheapest option using that 7 Day Season between Cholsey and Didcot.

A further ^2.30 can be saved by buying a FNN-RDG^‡(resolve) Off Peak Day Single at ^5.70 as your Cholsey to Didcot 7 Day Season is valid via Reading thanks to a Routeing Guide easement:

yyyyyes .... and I could get 1.50 back by turning in my 7 day season ticket after 1 day, - 15.60 - 4.10 return fare - 10.00 admin charge  - but I'm thinking that 61 pounds is a realistic fare for 75 miles each way - 41p per mile - where 76p per mile was excessive for a journey on which all the trains will be on quieter legs of their journeys.

[ChrisB]

Can you get refunds on 7day tickets?.....

[JayMac]

Can you get refunds on 7day tickets?.....

Yep. If there are at least 3 days remaining on a 7 Day Season.

Any amount to be refunded will be calculated from the date that you hand in the Season Ticket. The amount due will be based on what you originally paid for the ticket less what you would have paid had you bought a ticket or tickets valid up until that time. A ^10 administration charge will be deducted.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx

[bobm]

So, I assume, in grahame's case the application would need to be made when he finishes using it on day one rather than waiting until day two when it could be argued it had been used for a second day.   Bit of a snag if you end your journey at an unstaffed station.

[grahame]

I'm NOT trying the "turn in my season" trick - I think that's too much manipulating the system.   In fact I bought all the tickets a couple of days ago so I don't need to faff around tomorrow.

The of course I end up with a change of plans ... coming back from North Camp not Farnborough North.  Oh gawd - turn in my FNN to CHO and get a NCM to CHO instead?   Turns out that's 3.60 extra, but NCM to FNN is just 2.10 ... yet another split.   What a daft system!

[JayMac]

The additional single ticket is the only possible option.

Turning in your FNN-CHO Off Peak Day Single for a refund and buying a NCM-CHO Off Peak Day Single would be subject to a ^10 administration fee. So you're ^2 out of pocket before buying the new ticket.

You can't get a free excess when changing the origin station. Excesses are only available for change of destination.

[grahame]

You can't get a free excess when changing the origin station. Excesses are only available for change of destination.

I love it ... what's the logic to that little gem?

[JayMac]

Asking me to explain logic when it comes to fares? 

I'll try.

I'm going by the 'Excess Fares Procedure' available to staff in 'The Manual' (I have a copy of the 'Excess Fares Procedure' entry. Attached below) and that doesn't cover change of origin over-distance excesses, only change of destination.

But that's not to say that it can't be done. A clerk with the wherewithal to attempt it may have some success, as this post, from someone not unknown to this parish, from another rail forum shows:

As an update, I had a bit of a play with Star - and it seems it will allow a change of origin - I think the main problem is with The Manual, until there is actually written information saying ticket offices are able to do change of Origin - they will be reluctant to do it.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=497168#post497168

Star=FujitsuSTAR, the retail system used in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staffed stations.

So, without a written procedure for how to issue 'change of origin' over-distance excesses you are unlikely to have any joy requesting one. Unless you find one of those few clerks who will play around with their retail system and discover that it's possible.

[grahame]

Well ... I bought myself a North Camp to Farnborough North ticket .. and I was actually early at North Camp having been given a lift, so caught an earlier train ... which as it happened did not stop at Farnborough North.  I understood that I was OK to do that, rather than wait for the stopper, because I had exactly one season ticket in my resulting split.

North Camp to Farnborough - regular ticket
Farnbrorough to Cholsey - regular ticket
Cholsey to Didcot - Season
Didcot to Melksham - regular ticket

which as  understood it conforms to clause 19 of the conditions:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

and none of the tickets had any evening restrictions.

When tickets were checked, I handed the conductor the two tickets for the North Downs line, and showed him the season ticket and also the Didcot - Melksham.    He only looked at the two tickets, and told me they were not valid on that train as it didn't stop at Farnborough North.   I showed him my season ticket, and said I understood that the train did not have to stop at the split point if one of the tickets was a season.   He took a closer look at the season, and said that did not apply for the split I was trying to make at Farnborough North, and did so in a loud voice so that the who compartment was made aware that I was being told I was breaking the rules and trying to travel on a ticket that wasn't valid.

As I had a printout of my plans, including the condition printout, in my luggage, I said I would get them out so that he could explain why the split at FNN wasn't valid ... when I got back to my seat he was gone, to be seen only briefly once again as he came through counting passengers.  Just went straight past (from behind me) ... no contact.

Two questions:

a) Can anyone enlighten me as to how I broke the rules (of if indeed I did so) - what I had certainly looks to fit the letter of the conditions as I read them.

b) If indeed I was in error, why didn't the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) employee in question stop to show me how that was in the conditions of carriage - explain it to me.  And if I wasn't in error, why did he accuse me of travelling without a valid ticket, and do so in a loud voice in front of a lot of other people?

[JayMac]

You were not in error. He was.

Sadly, the knowledge on NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) Condition 19(c) is not very widespread. And there is a common misconception amongst rail staff that only one season and one additional ticket is allowed to satisfy 19(c).

My printout of Condition 19(c), that I sometimes carry, has the pertinent bits highlighted thus:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

<snip>

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) you weren't challenged further and no punitive action was taken. Although it's bad form of the conductor to not get back to you. Happened to myself and bobm recently as well.

It's down to training. There is, I'm led to believe, very little training on the National Rail Conditions of Carriage across all grades. And little appetite from management to implement more training in this area. Most staff that do know the ins and outs are likely self taught.

Then there are those staff who just hate the idea of people saving a few bob by using split tickets.

Or hate the idea that a passenger might actually know a little more about ticketing, fares and the NRCoC, than they do. That's when you get the loud voice which can and does make you feel uncomfortable. bobm knows that feeling. As do I following the full speaker volume berating I had from a ticket office supervisor at one of the windows at Paddington.

It shouldn't be so, but this is one of the downsides to split ticketing and the other legitimate ways to make the byzantine fares system work in your favour.

[bobm]

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) you weren't challenged further and no punitive action was taken. Although it's bad form of the conductor to not get back to you. Happened to myself and bobm recently as well.

..snip...

Or hate the idea that a passenger might actually know a little more about ticketing, fares and the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage), than they do. That's when you get the loud voice which can and does make you feel uncomfortable. bobm knows that feeling. As do I following the full speaker volume berating I had from a ticket office supervisor at one of the windows at Paddington.

For the record here was my experience http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8876.msg133850#msg133850

It seems therefore that my experience was, based on the small sample we have here, not uncommon.  What this means is I become less willing to recommend split tickets to some of my friends who would not be so confident in challenging on-board staff when questioned about them.  The result is they pay more for travel.